'Till Death Do us Part....

[Technik4]

One thing that has nagged in the back of my head since I started playing d&d is that spells dont go away when the caster dies. Or more specifically, you can sometimes easily get rid of a spell cast by a nefarious villain, without killing the villain. Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are the biggest villains here, although sometimes those "Remove" spells make things a little too easy as well.

So, I've come up with 2 versions of rules that will change this, although I'm not sure the second one would be balanced and work correctly, Id be willing to discuss it. There are other ways of doing the same thing, with a magic item, a prc, or an inventive ritual. Most of the time, I think this would be more suited for "the bad guys", to create adventuring necessities for the PCs. Its easy to ignore Bob the necromancer when he curses your fighter if you can just run back to church and get rid of the curse, but what if you have to kill Bob....

1) As a Metamagic Feat

Lasting Spell [Metamagic]
You can imbue spells to last as long as your life does.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 3rd level spells, Non-Good Alignment
Benefit: Choose any spell with Duration: Permanent or Duration: Instantaneous that creates or transforms something permanently, that spell's effect cannot be negated or suppressed by anything beyond your death (or for rules sake, if you are reduced to -1 hp). If you die or choose to end the effect the spell's effect automatically ends, even for odd situations.

Furthermore this feat creates a permanent thread between you and the effect that can be tracked via magical means (Detect Magic, Scrying). A lasting spell uses a spell slot one level higher than normal and costs 50 experience per spell level of the original spell. A list of spells that may be used with this feat follows, and more may be added at the DM's discretion.

Affected spells include: Animate Dead, Arcane Lock (also resists Knock), Arcane Mark (does not fade from living beings), Awaken, Bestow Curse, Binding Prison (Hedged Prison, Metamorphosis and Minimus Containment versions), Bless Water, Blindness/Deafness, Clone, Contagion (disease disappears from everyone it has spread to when you die), Continual Flame, Create Greater Undead, Create Undead, Create Water, Curse Water, Energy Drain (only for permanent levels lost), Fabricate, Feeblemind, Flesh to Stone, Forbiddance, Hallow, Illusory Wall, Imprisonment, Insanity, Leomund's Trap, Mark of Justice, Mending, Modify Memory, Permanent Image, Plant Growth, Polymorph Any Object (if permanent duration), Polymorph Other, Power Word Blind (if permanent), Secret Page, Simalcrum, Soften Earth & Stone, Soul Bind, Stone to Flesh, Temporal Stasis, Transmute Metal to Wood, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Trap The Soul, Unhallow, Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone. Also, any spell combined with Permanency can be affected by this, but experience costs for the Permanency spell are doubled.

[My thanks to seasong for this revised list of spells that work well with the feat, I only altered Permanency a bit, as it has some potential for broken-ness]

2) All spells duration include "or until the caster is reduced to -1 or less hp, whichever occurs first." This is a rather huge jump for magic, but it allows for some quirks too. For instance, that 5th level wizard casts hold person on the fighter and succeeds. Well, by killing the wizard you free your friend to help fight the rest of the enemies.

This at least seems to be how magic is generally done in fantasy literature, for the most part spells last as long as the caster. I would be willing to try playing in a world like that...what do you think?

Technik

 

[Mordane76]

For the most part, I have durations include that unwritten rule -- they die with their caster. As for the dispel spells, I think this greatly increases the power of magic, and greatly weakens the ability to defend against it. Spellcasters could no longer defend against their own ilk, and non-magic using people, IMO, would come to fear and despise magic users for the incredible power they wielded -- power that no one could break without killing the wielder.

For the Lasting Spell feat you posted, I think you might be underestimating the power of an unbreakable spell. I think you're going in the right direction with this, but I think the cost should be a bit higher. The level increase is probably spot on, but I think the XP cost should be a bit higher.

 

[Kyramus]

For the most part, Dispel Magic and Greater Dispelling are necessary tools for spell casters.

In my campaign it's seldome that you find a big concentration of spellcasters in one area, so dispelling stuff from each other hasn't been a problem. it's been a tactical advantage to do so. Enemies doing it to players and vice versa.

I don't see why there is a need to make another feat to prolong a spell other than extend spell. Or one that reflects permanency spells.

A feat should never be that strong.

If you find that you are running into all sorts of problems with dispel, use tactics. Have people in the sidelines with readied actions and damage the caster before casting forcing a concentration check.

Tag team a spell caster using 4 5th level casters with wands of dispel magic.

Mord's Disjuction as a trap not only targets the group, it targetts spells AND magic items.

 

[seasong]

Instead of an absolute ("can not be broken"), how about just making it very, very difficult? Maybe like this:

Lasting Spell [Metamagic]
You can imbue spells to last as long as your life does.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 3rd level spells
Benefit: Choose any spell with Duration: Permanent, and all attempts to end the spell's effect (such as by dispel magic, the appropriate remove spells, and so on) are at DC +10 to break or suppress the spell. If you die (are reduced to -1 hp), however, the spell's effect automatically ends. This creates a permanent thread betwee you and the effect that can be tracked via magical means (detect magic and similar). A lasting spell uses a spell slot one level higher than normal, and adds +50 XP cost per base spell level (before metamagic feats).

 

[Technik4]

Kyramus: I agree that Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are necessary spells in a D&d game. The problem for me is, that in fantasy literature/rpg novels/rpg games there is often something "lasting" and it can't just be solved by a dispel magic. The source of the magic is preventing it from being undone. This also makes many more aventuring hooks possible.

Scenario A: Your adventures take you to a town whose beloved mayor has been turned to stone by a mischief making wizard. The party spends a few days and each day tries to cast 3 dispel magics (or whatever). Eventually they succeed, the mayor is free, they get some more information and they continue on to fight the villain.

Scenario B: Your adventures take you to a town whose beloved mayor has been turned to stone by a mischief making wizard. The party detects a magical thread which leads north, and after asking the townspeople for clues they discover that there is an abandoned wizard's tower north of the town. They track the thread to said tower, and attempt to defeat the wizard to free the mayor.

To me, the second seems more like something I would read about in a novel, the first is the party solving a problem with their arsenal of spells (not that theres anything wrong with that). I presented this as an option for certain spellcasters (ideally villains, although a pc could certainly take it) who wish for their effects to be tied to themselves.

Or what about the dreaded final encounter with a lich after haphazardly exploring his dungeon. You didnt defeat all the undead, but with the lich's final "death" all his creations are undone.

Or the sacred burial site that has been desecrated and no amount of magic seems to effect it.

Or the unfortunate cursed hero, whose damsel is in distress, but he was cursed by a witch and she is the key...

The point is you can rule 0 that some of these things happen, but with something that you can point to that makes sense to the PCs, I see them as going with it easier.

Seasong: The problem is the remove spells dont have a DC, so this feat wouldnt have an effect for them. All of these effects are permanent as written, this feat just makes it un-removable and un-dispellable, with the caveat that you can always hunt down the caster. I suppose I should add something to the effect of "the caster may voluntarily dispel his own spell, but it must be of his own volition while not under any magical persuading effect".

I like consolidating the exp cost, and the part about detect magic though.

Technik

 

[GuardianLurker]

The original is *way* overpowered.

It's strictly better than Permanency - cheaper XP cost, no increase in materials cost, and immune to dispelling.

Immune to dispelling is probably roughly equivalent to Mordenkainen's Disjunction, maybe a level less, and currently, it'd have to be done with a Wish.

As written, this is worth at least a +4 bump. The "tracing" doesn't impose enough of a disadvantage, since it's only detectable with magic.

A better approach might be this:


Greater Permanency
Sor/Wiz 7, Cleric 7, Druid 7
Otherwise as permanency
Effect: This spell ties one of a select list of spells to the caster's life force. As a result, the spell lasts until the caster dies, and it becomes much more resistant to dispelling (DC +20).
Cost: 100 gp/spell lv diamond; 1000 xp
Effected Spells: ....

 

[Technik4]

I think youre missing the biggest part of all of this. Its permanent UNTIL the caster dies. Hence, any sort of permanency is actually weaker in some ways than real permanency. It isnt designed for havoc-making (although, its always traceable), and it isnt designed to buff yourself (which would be pointless, as soon as you die, your buffs go away). I fail to see the "power" of the spell, as it makes curses and the like possibly longer lasting. Its a good tool for a recurring villain, but it obviously cant be used that often. Can someone show me a few examples of this feat going wildly out of control? Maybe I just have a blind eye...

Technik

 

[seasong]

The problem for me is, that in fantasy literature/rpg novels/rpg games there is often something "lasting" and it can't just be solved by a dispel magic. The source of the magic is preventing it from being undone. This also makes many more aventuring hooks possible.

In most such literatures, including all of your examples, the caster is evil. Perhaps make this a necromantic feat, with some sort of sacrifice required?

Seasong: The problem is the remove spells dont have a DC,

Yup, yup, my bad.

Here's my revised version:

Lasting Spell (Metamagic)
You can imbue spells to last as long as your life does.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 3rd level spells (Optional: at least 7 necromantic spells, of which 1 is at least 3rd level).
Benefit: Choose any spell with Duration: Permanent or spell with Duration: Instant that creates or transforms something permanently (not including shaping or moving an object), and add this metamagic feat. That spell's effects can not be negated or suppressed by anything short of your death (or for rules sake, if you are reduced to -1 hp). If you die (are reduced to -1 hp), however, the spell's effect automatically ends, even for odd situations like something created by a spell (wall of iron or animate dead, for example). In the case of created objects, objects which have been worked or modified since you cast the spell cease to be affected by this feat (for example, a wall of iron which has been melted down and forged into swords). This creates a permanent thread between you and the effect that can be tracked via magical means (detect magic and similar). A lasting spell uses a spell slot one level higher than normal, and adds +50 XP cost per base spell level (before metamagic feats). Optional: A lasting spell also requires a 7 day ceremony to cast, culminating in the sacrifice of an innocent.

Spell Notes:
Affected spells (with no notes) include: Animate Dead, Awaken, Bestow Curse, Binding Prison (Hedged Prison, Metamorphosis and Minimus Containment versions), Bless Water, Blindness/Deafness, Continual Flame, Create Greater Undead, Create Undead, Create Water, Curse Water, Fabricate, Feeblemind, Flesh to Stone, Forbiddance, Hallow, Illusory Wall, Imprisonment, Insanity, Leomund's Trap, Mark of Justice, Mending, Permanent Image, Plant Growth, Polymorph Any Object (if permanent duration), Polymorph Other, Power Word Blind (if permanent), Secret Page, Simalcrum, Soften Earth & Stone, Soul Bind, Stone to Flesh, Temporal Stasis, Transmute Metal to Wood, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Trap The Soul, Unhallow, Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone.

Arcane Lock is affected. Knock will not bypass it.
Arcane mark is affected. It does not fade from living beings.
Clone is affected, and makes a damned fine hold on someone (kill someone, clone them, and if you die, they die).
Contagion is affected. The disease disappears from everyone it has spread to when you die (this does not count as "worked" or "modified").
Energy Drain is affected, but only for the permanent levels lost.
Modify Memory is affected; the subject remembers everything when you die.
Spells affected by Permanency are affected, but this is generally useless unless cast on someone else.

Spells Not Included That You Wanted Included:
Desecrate: This is crying out for a permanency spell (1,000 XP).
Enervation: Energy Drain should be enough; this is too low-level.
Geas, Lesser Geas: Not sure. Rule 0? (I.E., add in, "and geas")
Magic Jar: See Desecrate, 2,000 XP.
Stone Shape, Wood Shape: I'm not sure I understand these. Regardless, take off the limit on "moved or shaped".

 

[Hashmalum]

Technik4--I like the general concept of the feat you created. I'll probably end up doing a version of my own, though, since I created some spells that I'll definitely have to specify how they'll interact with the feat (subvert magic, for instance, which causes a spell to "forget" who cast it). The only bad thing about it (for me) is that it makes the feat I created to notify a caster when his spell is removed semi-obsolete.

I'm less fond of the rules variation, since it creates problems with things like magic items (do they lose their power if the creator dies? If so, that'll have some huge ramifications for the game world) and of the course the "looting a wizard's/priest's tomb" scenario will be much easier if magical traps that outlast the caster can't be created.

Scenario B: Your adventures take you to a town whose beloved mayor has been turned to stone by a mischief making wizard. The party detects a magical thread which leads north, and after asking the townspeople for clues they discover that there is an abandoned wizard's tower north of the town. They track the thread to said tower, and attempt to defeat the wizard to free the mayor.

Flesh to stone is an instantaneous spell in 3rd Edition, so this wouldn't work with your feat unless you house rule the duration back to permanent (which I actually like better, since IMO it makes no sense for break enchantment to be able to reverse an instantaneous effect).

Or what about the dreaded final encounter with a lich after haphazardly exploring his dungeon. You didnt defeat all the undead, but with the lich's final "death" all his creations are undone.

This would be an excellent security feature for the lich paranoid that his intelligent minions would betray him (there's no point in making it apply to unintelligent undead). However, since the various spells to create undead are mostly instantaneous, this would require a seperate feat or spell. Personally, it seems kind of weak by itself for a feat, so I'd make it a spell that would link some effect to the caster's death--undeath to death for the scenario mentioned above. Or, in a somewhat Vampire: the Masquerade-ish twist, you could create another spell that drives undead into a murderous frenzy, so when the creator dies, his horde goes on a rampage (some story hooks there).

 

[GuardianLurker]

it isnt designed to buff yourself (which would be pointless, as soon as you die, your buffs go away).

Of course, since my buffs only do me good while I'm awake, this is just the same as permanency for all practical purposes. Contrast an empowered lasting Fox's Cunning (as per your original feat), which requires the casting of a single 5th level spell and 100 XP which cannot be dispelled, with the core Combo of a Permanent Fox's Cunning, which requires the casting of a 2nd and 5th level spell, the expenditure of at least 500 XP, and can be dispelled.

Metamagic feats are strictly better than a spell equivalent (consider that Extend replaced the Extension series of spells which started at 3rd lvl), and since your feat *improves* on Permanency, you face an even stronger challenge.

Can someone show me a few examples of this feat going wildly out of control?

How about a Lasting Fire Trap? Or a Lasting Continual Flame that's been Energy Substituted Acid (I think that's possible)?