D&D 5E Throwing Weapons is Cool! So why is it weak?

[Voi_D_ragon]

Hrm. Don't recall saying the feature had anything to do with making you a "master thrower". But it does start off saying, "This favorite trick of knife throwers..." and proceeds to provide a decent benefit for someone who wants to be super accurate throwing a dagger. That's all. Not sure what you were hoping for. Nor what you expected it to say based on my previous post. But them's the brakes, one supposes.

Well, super accurate at throwing a dagger or a few daggers, yes, but BI is limited and that feature IMO wouldn't really help thrown weapon DPR/tactical soundness significantly, since you also want to use inspiration on your allies. Still, all input is welcome (if sometimes taken the wrong way)

 

[Azurewraith]

Maybe a feat to allow you to throw something like 5 things in a round? Stupid idea I know. I do like the idea of a bonus action attack.

 

[Voi_D_ragon]

How about something like:
When you are wielding a weapon with the Thrown property, you may make a single attack with it as a Bonus Action.
That would allow you to move, including dashing or disengaging, while still getting an attack off. As well as generally increasing the attacks you can make with them.

I believe that that suggestion was more along the lines of catching thrown objects and being able to throw them back.


How do people feel about 'enabler' abilities rather than just direct bonuses?
For example would a simple: You may treat a weapon with the Thrown property as a Ranged weapon when making a ranged weapon attack with it. be worthwhile as a feat property, subclass ability or houserule?
(Allowing you to use the sharpshooter feat benefits with thrown weapons etc.) - (Perhaps make it any ranged weapon so that you could use Crossbow Expert with thrown weapons.)

Ok, I'm back home, so I can start doing stuff. As for the bonus action thing: sure it would be nice, but what about people dual wielding thrown weapons? that just leaves them with a pile of dust; maybe something more along the lines of whenever you make an attack action and use on thrown weapons, you may make an extra attack (per hand?), using throwing weapons.
As for the enabler: I don't think many people will take a feat just so they can take another feat later; that may have been the case in 3.5 with feat trees, but as it is now with all the feats being "free standing" or at most synergizing, it seems like a big investment, especially with the limited 5-7 ASIs (and most campaigns end before you even get all of them, so... yeah). I am only looking at this from a feat perspective, since that's what you mentioned I'm sure treating thrown weapons as full fledged ranged weapons would have other consequences as well, but I don't feel like thinking about it now.

Anywho, here's a few feat Ideas:

-Master Thrower
You specialize in using thrown weapons to harass your foes, staying just out of their reach and landing hit after hit on them.
-When you take an attack action and attack only with throwing weapons, you may make an additional attack with each hand.
-Whenever you hit an enemy with a thrown weapon attack, you may freely move up to 10 ft. You may use this feature up to three times per turn./Whenever you hit an enemy with a thrown weapon attack, their movement is slowed by 10 ft until the beginning of your next turn (this could kind of be a hassle to track now that I think of it)/Whenever an enemy comes within 5 ft of you, you may freely move up to 15 ft without provoking attacks of opportunity.
-You do not suffer disadvantage on attack rolls using thrown weapons when an enemy is within 5 ft of you.

Seems like a pretty strong feat, one that most every character throwing would get almost by default... that might mean it's too strong, or that thrown weapons were realy that bad they needed all this.

 

[Azurewraith]

Ok, I'm back home, so I can start doing stuff. As for the bonus action thing: sure it would be nice, but what about people dual wielding thrown weapons? that just leaves them with a pile of dust; maybe something more along the lines of whenever you make an attack action and use on thrown weapons, you may make an extra attack (per hand?), using throwing weapons.
As for the enabler: I don't think many people will take a feat just so they can take another feat later; that may have been the case in 3.5 with feat trees, but as it is now with all the feats being "free standing" or at most synergizing, it seems like a big investment, especially with the limited 5-7 ASIs (and most campaigns end before you even get all of them, so... yeah). I am only looking at this from a feat perspective, since that's what you mentioned I'm sure treating thrown weapons as full fledged ranged weapons would have other consequences as well, but I don't feel like thinking about it now.

Anywho, here's a few feat Ideas:

-Master Thrower
You specialize in using thrown weapons to harass your foes, staying just out of their reach and landing hit after hit on them.
-When you take an attack action and attack only with throwing weapons, you may make an additional attack with each hand.
-Whenever you hit an enemy with a thrown weapon attack, you may freely move up to 10 ft. You may use this feature up to three times per turn./Whenever you hit an enemy with a thrown weapon attack, their movement is slowed by 10 ft until the beginning of your next turn (this could kind of be a hassle to track now that I think of it)/Whenever an enemy comes within 5 ft of you, you may freely move up to 15 ft without provoking attacks of opportunity.
-You do not suffer disadvantage on attack rolls using thrown weapons when an enemy is within 5 ft of you.

Seems like a pretty strong feat, one that most every character throwing would get almost by default... that might mean it's too strong, or that thrown weapons were realy that bad they needed all this.

I think its doing to much. Most feats only have 2-3 effects. Perhaps remove the slow and the free movement? I do like the extra attacks

 

[Voi_D_ragon]

I think its doing to much. Most feats only have 2-3 effects. Perhaps remove the slow and the free movement? I do like the extra attacks

The second point has slashes and is only one point because I don't know which one of those to use . All of those together would be totally broken. Probably should have clarified that.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Ok, I'm back home, so I can start doing stuff. As for the bonus action thing: sure it would be nice, but what about people dual wielding thrown weapons? that just leaves them with a pile of dust;

No, given we're discussing tactical and mobility options, it still lets them do something that they wouldn't be able to do without the feat. Whether disengaging and giving a parting shot with your dagger, or taking a full move + dash and heaving a javelin as you close to melee. Note also that this additional bonus action attack is not an off-hand attack and so would get Str or Dex to damage, most dual-wielder's bonus attacks.

I'm actually thinking, rather than Bonus action, how about Reaction:
When you are wielding a weapon with the Thrown property, you may make one attack with it at any time as a Reaction.
That allows you to get your extra attack out, but it also plays up the throwing weapon concept as being always ready. - You could attack as soon as someone closed to you, or tried to run away from you, or even just cast a spell near you.

maybe something more along the lines of whenever you make an attack action and use on thrown weapons, you may make an extra attack (per hand?), using throwing weapons.

That strikes me as offering nothing more than simply increasing DPR.

As for the enabler: I don't think many people will take a feat just so they can take another feat later; that may have been the case in 3.5 with feat trees, but as it is now with all the feats being "free standing" or at most synergizing, it seems like a big investment, especially with the limited 5-7 ASIs (and most campaigns end before you even get all of them, so... yeah). I am only looking at this from a feat perspective, since that's what you mentioned I'm sure treating thrown weapons as full fledged ranged weapons would have other consequences as well, but I don't feel like thinking about it now.

I mentioned that enabler option as being a possible subclass ability, or plain houserule as well as feat option. - Simply allowing a version of Crossbow expert and/or Sharpshooter feats to work with thrown weapons for example.

-Master Thrower
You specialize in using thrown weapons to harass your foes, staying just out of their reach and landing hit after hit on them.
-When you take an attack action and attack only with throwing weapons, you may make an additional attack with each hand.

Language needs tightening up. Do these have to be ranged attacks, or could a dual-wielder use this feat for additional melee attacks? What about non-dual-wielders? If one hand is holding a rapier, or shield, or torch, what form does the additional attack with that hand take?

-Whenever you hit an enemy with a thrown weapon attack, you may freely move up to 10 ft. You may use this feature up to three times per turn./Whenever you hit an enemy with a thrown weapon attack, their movement is slowed by 10 ft until the beginning of your next turn (this could kind of be a hassle to track now that I think of it)/Whenever an enemy comes within 5 ft of you, you may freely move up to 15 ft without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Does the "freely" in the various instances mean anything? if so, you need to define it. If not, you should probably remove it.
Does this movement count in addition to your normal move? Could you use this feat to move further than you normally could in a round by defining the ground as an enemy and throwing darts into it rather than Dashing?
Does the movement reduction stack? Do you see this as being possible to do with any ranged weapon attack, or only with a thrown weapon. Why?
The movement when an enemy moves within 5ft of you doesn't seem particularly thematic to thrown weapons. Indeed, it would make more sense for a ranged weapon feat given that most thrown weapons are melee weapons, and so their user doesn't really have an issue with being in melee range.
It should definitely also cost the user's reaction, otherwise you could do this multiple times and be impossible to engage in melee.

-You do not suffer disadvantage on attack rolls using thrown weapons when an enemy is within 5 ft of you.

Seems like a pretty strong feat, one that most every character throwing would get almost by default... that might mean it's too strong, or that thrown weapons were realy that bad they needed all this.[/QUOTE]

 

[Xeviat]

Disadvantage on throwing in melee only matters if you're throwing at someone else; thrown weapons are melee weapons and you can just stab/hit someone with them anyway.


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[Azurewraith]

How did I miss those slashes? That's what ressing in bed does to ya folks. Just using the options listed above I would go with.

When you take an attack action you can make an additional thrown attack with each hand. Reason, being I'm far from an expert with a bow so don't quote me on this but I aim with a bow after readying the arrow snapshooting just doesn't work out to well. It's pretty easy to snap shoot with something your throwing though.

When you hit an enemy with thrown attack you may move 10ft without provoking attacks of oppertunity. Reasoning, your not lugging around a cumbersome weapon as you try and dart away so can move a tad easier(flimsy I know)

You can use your reaction to make a oppertunity attack against an opponent that moves within your range. Reason gives you extra hit and run along with fitting in with the rapid attacking play style.

One issue that's cropped up if your a fighter with action surge and 3 attacks you would bst throwing 10things in a turn, that's half a quiver of arrows. I have no issue with the ammount thrown more running out.

 

[Voi_D_ragon]

How did I miss those slashes? That's what ressing in bed does to ya folks. Just using the options listed above I would go with.

When you take an attack action you can make an additional thrown attack with each hand. Reason, being I'm far from an expert with a bow so don't quote me on this but I aim with a bow after readying the arrow snapshooting just doesn't work out to well. It's pretty easy to snap shoot with something your throwing though.

When you hit an enemy with thrown attack you may move 10ft without provoking attacks of oppertunity. Reasoning, your not lugging around a cumbersome weapon as you try and dart away so can move a tad easier(flimsy I know)

You can use your reaction to make a oppertunity attack against an opponent that moves within your range. Reason gives you extra hit and run along with fitting in with the rapid attacking play style.

One issue that's cropped up if your a fighter with action surge and 3 attacks you would bst throwing 10things in a turn, that's half a quiver of arrows. I have no issue with the ammount thrown more running out.

I think the extra movement should be limited to 1-3 times per turn, otherwise our fighter friend here could move some 130 per turn, provoking no OAs and without dashing. Also, should this be limited to your turn only? Because catching up to someone just to get a knife in the face and have them run away seems frustrating.
About running out of knives... Carry more knives , I mean if I used encumbrance, i would allow for stripped down versions of daggers to weigh less but be less effective in combat for throwers (yeah, darts exist, but knives are just cooler)-or houserule that darts are throwing knives with no hilt and barely any handle (as throwing knives are wont to be); I can think of a lot of places to strap knives: one belt on your waist, two diagonally on your torso, one on eavh forearm, bicep, shoulder, thigh and calf, coule more behind your back; if you have a shield you can sow so e leather on it and stick some more around its edge: that's a lot of knives, considering they don't break and you can pick them all up after a fight, not to mention have spare belts in you pack and whatnot, I think you should never be able to run out in 3-10 round fights.

 

[Voi_D_ragon]

@Morrus;

No, given we're discussing tactical and mobility options, it still lets them do something that they wouldn't be able to do without the feat. Whether disengaging and giving a parting shot with your dagger, or taking a full move + dash and heaving a javelin as you close to melee. Note also that this additional bonus action attack is not an off-hand attack and so would get Str or Dex to damage, most dual-wielder's bonus attacks.

I'm actually thinking, rather than Bonus action, how about Reaction:
When you are wielding a weapon with the Thrown property, you may make one attack with it at any time as a Reaction.
That allows you to get your extra attack out, but it also plays up the throwing weapon concept as being always ready. - You could attack as soon as someone closed to you, or tried to run away from you, or even just cast a spell near you.


That strikes me as offering nothing more than simply increasing DPR.

I mentioned that enabler option as being a possible subclass ability, or plain houserule as well as feat option. - Simply allowing a version of Crossbow expert and/or Sharpshooter feats to work with thrown weapons for example.

Language needs tightening up. Do these have to be ranged attacks, or could a dual-wielder use this feat for additional melee attacks? What about non-dual-wielders? If one hand is holding a rapier, or shield, or torch, what form does the additional attack with that hand take?

Does the "freely" in the various instances mean anything? if so, you need to define it. If not, you should probably remove it.
Does this movement count in addition to your normal move? Could you use this feat to move further than you normally could in a round by defining the ground as an enemy and throwing darts into it rather than Dashing?
Does the movement reduction stack? Do you see this as being possible to do with any ranged weapon attack, or only with a thrown weapon. Why?
The movement when an enemy moves within 5ft of you doesn't seem particularly thematic to thrown weapons. Indeed, it would make more sense for a ranged weapon feat given that most thrown weapons are melee weapons, and so their user doesn't really have an issue with being in melee range.
It should definitely also cost the user's reaction, otherwise you could do this multiple times and be impossible to engage in melee.



Seems like a pretty strong feat, one that most every character throwing would get almost by default... that might mean it's too strong, or that thrown weapons were really that bad they needed all this.

Oooh. Oh. Ok, as a Bonus action at any time, I was thinking when you took the Attack action only. Ok, yeah, I dig it, but still not as good if you're dual wielding IMO.

Alright, so... The enabler as a houserule would be nice, I don't think it could really be a subclass option becuase there are DMs that don't allow feats so it would kind of useless (although a DM allowing a homebrew subclass but not feats strikes me as unlikely, there is that chance).

"When making thrown weapon attacks" was intented to mean "when using a weapon with the Thrown property to make ranged attacks", and additional attacks could only be ranged attacks, so no melee/thrown.

Movement bits-Either the "always ready" reaction or the movement reaction should be included, although I would prefer having the movement speed on a hit rather than the "run away" option.
"Enemy" intended as hostile creature you are currently engaged in combat with (initiative has been rolled by both).
The movement reduction I hadn't really though of much since it seems like a lot of work to track different speeds changing from round to round on enemies, but it would definetely not stack.
"Freely" simply means that it doesn't count against your normal movement.