D&D General The thread where I review a ton of Ravenloft modules

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
I've always thought the best way to include Van Richten in an adventure was posthumously, by having the players stumble upon one of his books in the game world while opposing the appropriate monster.
Naturally, the books would be outdated and slightly misinformed, but they could at least count on someone being on their side, even if they are dead and gone.
 

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Otherwise, you move out of gothic horror and moved into slasher horror
You mean like the knife wielding clowns that are currently gruesomely murdering the Ravenloft Carnival performers in my current campaign? We can do a bit of slasher. Don’t split the party!

My players are much more frightened of the clown than any dragon.
 


Bedrockgames

I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I've always thought the best way to include Van Richten in an adventure was posthumously, by having the players stumble upon one of his books in the game world while opposing the appropriate monster.
Naturally, the books would be outdated and slightly misinformed, but they could at least count on someone being on their side, even if they are dead and gone.

I tend to agree. I never introduced him as a character either. He is too famous. I used to just make other vampire hunters who were familiar with his works
 

TiQuinn

Registered User
That misses the memo. Dracula is more than a match for any of the six hunters in the novel, but all six are able to stop him and his minions with only one fatality. Ravenloft is supposed to be about overcoming the odds. Otherwise, you move out of gothic horror and moved into slasher horror.
I agree. There was always this feeling like the darklords weren’t meant to be fought because they’d simply crush the party, at least as written in 2e books. Yet, what else is the purpose of the setting? You don’t create something and stat something to not put before the PCs as a challenge. I always thought RL missed the mark on this.
 

Bedrockgames

I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I agree. There was always this feeling like the darklords weren’t meant to be fought because they’d simply crush the party, at least as written in 2e books. Yet, what else is the purpose of the setting? You don’t create something and stat something to not put before the PCs as a challenge. I always thought RL missed the mark on this.

You could have them face the dark lords, and plenty of adventures at least featured them. This was really a matter of preference. I tended to have it be more of a once in a while thing, than point of the campaign thing. But the approach to killing most of them requires a lot of information gathering (some are hard or really difficult to kill permanently, some nearly impossible). So it isn't ideal if your players want to just charge in and stab them in the face (unless the dark lord in question is Ivan Dilisnya or something).

That said Dark Lords often pulled the strings and were antagonists but not necessarily someone the party had to face. Feast of Goblyns features Harkon Lukas in the background for instance. One of the horror of Ravenloft is realizing you aren't in Kansas anymore and a mere worlfwere like Harkon, has connections to the land that protect him (this is something that Knight of the Black Rose illustrated well when Soth first confronted Strahd). That doesn't mean the dark lord is necessarily going to rend PCs limb from limb, he may simply prove his point, frighten them, and move on. You are meant to play them as living characters.

The other thing to consider is one of the big functions of dark lords is to provide blue prints for other foes. Even villains who aren't domain lords, but are a product of the dark powers corruption, are going down the same path domain lords went. They are like microcosms of dark lords. When you start to think of just about any foe who is a product of going down that path into evil, it really opens up the game. The real point of Ravenloft is to make monstrous villains who unique, so their strengths and weaknesses aren't fully predictable. Some might be laboring under a curse. Some might simply be vampires but different than standard creatures of their kind. This encourages adventures that are built more around investigating the threat and then discovering how to deal with them.
 

TiQuinn

Registered User
You could have them face the dark lords, and plenty of adventures at least featured them. This was really a matter of preference. I tended to have it be more of a once in a while thing, than point of the campaign thing. But the approach to killing most of them requires a lot of information gathering (some are hard or really difficult to kill permanently, some nearly impossible). So it isn't ideal if your players want to just charge in and stab them in the face (unless the dark lord in question is Ivan Dilisnya or something).

That said Dark Lords often pulled the strings and were antagonists but not necessarily someone the party had to face. Feast of Goblyns features Harkon Lukas in the background for instance. One of the horror of Ravenloft is realizing you aren't in Kansas anymore and a mere worlfwere like Harkon, has connections to the land that protect him (this is something that Knight of the Black Rose illustrated well when Soth first confronted Strahd). That doesn't mean the dark lord is necessarily going to rend PCs limb from limb, he may simply prove his point, frighten them, and move on. You are meant to play them as living characters.

The other thing to consider is one of the big functions of dark lords is to provide blue prints for other foes. Even villains who aren't domain lords, but are a product of the dark powers corruption, are going down the same path domain lords went. They are like microcosms of dark lords. When you start to think of just about any foe who is a product of going down that path into evil, it really opens up the game. The real point of Ravenloft is to make monstrous villains who unique, so their strengths and weaknesses aren't fully predictable. Some might be laboring under a curse. Some might simply be vampires but different than standard creatures of their kind. This encourages adventures that are built more around investigating the threat and then discovering how to deal with them.

I wish the early adventures reinforced this. Most of the time they were simply railroads that wanted to stand out as different from a garden variety D&D adventure at the time rather than create something engaging. As great as the Van Richten’s Guides were (and I think they were utterly fantastic), no one from TSR ever looked at those guides and said we should make an adventure that is like an investigation where the PCs have to research and discover the villain’s motivations and weaknesses in the same way that the guides laid out. That would’ve been fantastic!
 

Stormonu

NeoGrognard
Dark Lords are really much like the Thanos factor.

For the most part, they are behind the scenes, manipulating events that the players become embroiled in unknowingly. After some time, the strings lead the PCs back to discovering the hand of the Dark Lord. It's generally expected the first confrontation that follows leaves the PCs defeated and discouraged that the Dark Lord is just too difficult to beat* (usually with one or more PCs dead). The PCs have to regather their strength, become stronger and make a second push hoping that this time they can at least thwart - and perhaps beat the Dark Lord.

At least, that's what a well-written and executed adventure attempts to do. I haven't seen a 2E Ravenloft adventure that pulls this off effectively without feeling heavy-handed about it or stacking the deck in such a way that isn't just fiat (a well done one would have the PCs working to some minor success that would reasonably stay the villain's hand from utterly destroying the PCs in that first encounter). If it is done correctly, the PCs will have a personal beef with the Dark Lord that will push the adventure forward - and healthy respect/fear about that second meeting.

* When Thanos first arrives on the Valhallan refugee ship, this is what happens in the MCU.
 

Bedrockgames

I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I wish the early adventures reinforced this. Most of the time they were simply railroads that wanted to stand out as different from a garden variety D&D adventure at the time rather than create something engaging. As great as the Van Richten’s Guides were (and I think they were utterly fantastic), no one from TSR ever looked at those guides and said we should make an adventure that is like an investigation where the PCs have to research and discover the villain’s motivations and weaknesses in the same way that the guides laid out. That would’ve been fantastic!

The Van Richten books are really where the seeds for that are. In a way, I am kind of glad they didn't do adventures like this. Not because they wouldn't have been good, but because I think I had better sessions and became a better GM by trying to turn the material in the Van Richten books into adventures. It was like a series of aha movements for me
 

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