The Proper Use of Nudity in FRPG Art

[danbuter1]

Guys, it's FANTASY! I WANT to see hot, near-to-totally nude women. If you must have a realistic look to your adventurers, feel free. But don't expect me to buy your book if it's full of ugly people.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why are they dressed like that?

Maybe it's a hot day.

Why is it the guy that has big muscles and a sword? Why can't there be a man who gets a muscular woman to fight for him?

Frazetta lets Elmore and Julie Bell paint the muscular women. You have to protect your niche.

-Hyp.

 

[Khuxan]

Maybe it's a hot day.

A hot day?

Frazetta lets Elmore and Julie Bell paint the muscular women. You have to protect your niche.

Non-sexist art is not a 'niche'. The Player's Handbook's art should show confident men and women, so that both males and females feel enfranchised and empowered. If you have muscular men defending submissive women, you send a clear message to females that they're not an active part of this hobby.

By comparison, would it be acceptable if Frazetta showed strong white males and females defending cowering, simpering black males and females? Would that just be 'niche protection'?

 

[Hypersmurf]

A hot day?

A muscular woman protecting a baby from a beast... isn't that what you wanted?

Non-sexist art is not a 'niche'. The Player's Handbook's art should show confident men and women, so that both males and females feel enfranchised and empowered. If you have muscular men defending submissive women, you send a clear message to females that they're not an active part of this hobby.

By comparison, would it be acceptable if Frazetta showed strong white males and females defending cowering, simpering black males and females? Would that just be 'niche protection'?

Surely it depends on the setting being depicted?

If the setting includes strong warriors of both genders, it makes sense for both to be depicted. If female warriors are an unusual oddity, I wouldn't expect the art to be 50/50.

If the setting has a dark-skinned race with no martial tradition who rely on others for their protection, I'd expect the art would reflect that.

I'd expect a historic Earth setting, for example, to be weighted a long way toward the muscular men and women-in-danger end of the scale, with only the occasional example of the outlandish female warrior in the artwork.

I'd expect a Forgotten Realms setting, on the other hand, to be more balanced, since the woman-as-warrior is not so out of place there. Which is not to say I feel Frazetta is inappropriate; rather that he would not be the sole source of artwork to depict the setting.

-Hyp.

 

[Khuxan]

A muscular woman protecting a baby from a beast... isn't that what you wanted?

For an unarmed, stooped woman to be the most proactive and powerful woman in a whole page of pictures - many boasting armed, heroic men - is hardly a victory for feminism.

Surely it depends on the setting being depicted?

If the setting includes strong warriors of both genders, it makes sense for both to be depicted. If female warriors are an unusual oddity, I wouldn't expect the art to be 50/50.

If the setting has a dark-skinned race with no martial tradition who rely on others for their protection, I'd expect the art would reflect that.

I'd expect a historic Earth setting, for example, to be weighted a long way toward the muscular men and women-in-danger end of the scale, with only the occasional example of the outlandish female warrior in the artwork.

I'd expect a Forgotten Realms setting, on the other hand, to be more balanced, since the woman-as-warrior is not so out of place there. Which is not to say I feel Frazetta is inappropriate; rather that he would not be the sole source of artwork to depict the setting.

The claim was that Frazetta best represents "adventurers and the world they live in". Given women can be as capable adventurers as men can, and since D&D as a whole should be as inclusive as possible, I would argue the artwork should be as balanced as possible. This art leaves female adventurers unincluded.

 

[Hypersmurf]

For an unarmed, stooped woman to be the most proactive and powerful woman in a whole page of pictures - many boasting armed, heroic men - is hardly a victory for feminism.

But what does feminism have to do with Frazetta?

The claim was that Frazetta best represents "adventurers and the world they live in". Given women can be as capable adventurers as men can, and since D&D as a whole should be as inclusive as possible, I would argue the artwork should be as balanced as possible. This art leaves female adventurers unincluded.

I'd say Frazetta does well at representing adventurers and the world they live in - just not all of them. The scenes Frazetta paints are not out-of-place in an adventuring world. They just don't give the whole picture.

-Hyp.

 

[Khuxan]

But what does feminism have to do with Frazetta?

The equal and fair treatment of women.

I'd say Frazetta does well at representing adventurers and the world they live in - just not all of them. The scenes Frazetta paints are not out-of-place in an adventuring world. They just don't give the whole picture.

I'd say the picture they paint is not just incomplete, it's motivated by disturbing prejudice.

 

[Reynard]

The claim was that Frazetta best represents "adventurers and the world they live in". Given women can be as capable adventurers as men can, and since D&D as a whole should be as inclusive as possible, I would argue the artwork should be as balanced as possible. This art leaves female adventurers unincluded.

You freely admitted to checking out exactly one gallery page, and it shows. If you go through the B&W gallery, for example, every page has at least one picture of a powerful warrior woman -- a staple of sword and sworcery fantasy as surely as damsels-in-distress and slave girls.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You freely admitted to checking out exactly one gallery page, and it shows. If you go through the B&W gallery, for example, every page has at least one picture of a powerful warrior woman -- a staple of sword and sworcery fantasy as surely as damsels-in-distress and slave girls.

Not just the black and whites, either - on the gallery Khuxan linked to, on a single page, we have:

[sblock]Example
Example
Example
Example[/sblock]

Let's try another page:

[sblock]Example
Example
Example
Example
Example[/sblock]

(Note - being Frazetta, some of those pictures might be considered NSFW.)

Does Frazetta evince a preference for painting heroic men and helpless women? Sure.
Is that all he paints? Not at all.
Do Frazetta's paintings, taken individually, fit well in a fantasy adventure setting? Sure. Not necessarily everyone's setting - he doesn't paint a lot of plate armour, or lightning rails and warforged, but it fits some settings just fine.
Does Frazetta's preference - not exclusive preference, demonstrably - mean that the setting his artwork fits excludes strong female characters? Not at all.

-Hyp.

 

[Orius]

Hey, some of us like the beefcake too. The nudity double standard for gender has always bugged me a little - succubi get big boobs with nipples, but a demon of lust or a handsome centaur stallion can't have balls?

Except that a centaur will probably be hung like a horse -- literally. I'd imagine they're anatomically similar to equines. Not sure how arousing that would be, since I'm neither into men or animals.