D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Kinematics]

You've given Pact of the Blade one more invocation than you've given Eldritch Blast in your analysis, so yes, of course the results are going to be uneven.

Forgot to list Agonizing Blast in the list. Fixed.

And yes, they don't have the same number of invocations because there were no other invocations to affect Eldritch Blast's damage. Feel free to use whatever you want to balance that out.

That's a great argument for changing Spirit Shroud's upcast benefit, not for nerfing thirsting blade.

I already made exactly that argument earlier in the thread. This post was specifically to address your false claims that there's a negligible (~3 point) difference in damage between the EB setup and the PoB setup.

None of this suggests to me that there's a problem with thirsting blade.

The problem is not any single ability, but the combination of several factors, one of which is Thirsting Blade. Saying that Thirsting Blade is "not broken" is rather missing the point. The PoB setup can be brought back down to "midline" levels in several different ways. The question is, how many different things are the designers willing to change to make that happen?

Removing the third attack from Thirsting Blade cuts off the damage amplification of the damage boosting effects (Hex/Shroud/Lifedrinker), and any potential spells or multiclass effects added later. Removing the damage scaling of Spirit Shroud makes it a minor boost over Hex, and not so excessive. Or you could remove it altogether*. Lifedrinker doesn't need to add extra damage, and can just heal you when you attack. You could remove heavy weapons from the available weapons Pact of the Blade grants proficiency in.

* I'm not sure how easy it is to entirely remove a spell, since in theory you should be able to use older books, which means Spirit Shroud is always hanging out there in Tasha's.

The combo is definitely overpowered, and it definitely needs to be nerfed, but there are several approaches for how to do so. Any of those changes could be done (though only one or two should be needed; definitely not all of them), but we don't know what the design goals of WotC are in this matter.

 

[WanderingMystic]

So I don't care about them getting a 3rd attack, what I do care a out is the fact that it is part of an invocation that is already powerful and that it isn't nessisary until lovl 17 with the 4th attack.

Pact of the blade with thirsting blade and lifedrinker keeps up with eldritch blast with agonizing blast. Yes this takes 2 more invocation but the blade should take more than the eldritch blast which is baked into the class.

If a third attack didn't come online until lvl 17 I doubt many people would complain about them getting it.

 

[Stalker0]

That costs a spell slot, and can be applied to eldritch blast. It is probably too powerful, and it should be nerfed, not thirsting blade.

technically true, though you must be within 10 feet of the target, and that may be difficult to maintain without getting put into melee.

 

[Charlaquin]

Forgot to list Agonizing Blast in the list. Fixed.

Amd you also forgot that Pact of the Blade is itself an Invocation, so even with this “fix”, your blade setup still has one additional invocation compared to your blast setup.

Two more, actually, because you’re assuming Thirsting Blade as well.

And yes, they don't have the same number of invocations because there were no other invocations to affect Eldritch Blast's damage. Feel free to use whatever you want to balance that out.

But there are other Invocations that improve the damage dealing capabilities and overall utility of the blaster Warlock, which your pure DPR analysis fails to account for. Yes, bladelocks do have a lot of damage-boosting options, but they all come at opportunity costs. To find out if those opportunity costs are significant enough to balance the power of the damage boosting abilities, playtesting is needed.

I already made exactly that argument earlier in the thread. This post was specifically to address your false claims that there's a negligible (~3 point) difference in damage between the EB setup and the PoB setup.

I didn’t make any claims about comparing setups. I said Thirsting Blade doesn’t allow warlocks to do anything they couldn’t already do since 2014 (although apparently for some people “the same damage but with a weapon” does count as something they couldn’t do before ).

The problem is not any single ability, but the combination of several factors, one of which is Thirsting Blade. Saying that Thirsting Blade is "not broken" is rather missing the point. The PoB setup can be brought back down to "midline" levels in several different ways. The question is, how many different things are the designers willing to change to make that happen?

Removing the third attack from Thirsting Blade cuts off the damage amplification of the damage boosting effects (Hex/Shroud/Lifedrinker), and any potential spells or multiclass effects added later. Removing the damage scaling of Spirit Shroud makes it a minor boost over Hex, and not so excessive. Or you could remove it altogether*. Lifedrinker doesn't need to add extra damage, and can just heal you when you attack. You could remove heavy weapons from the available weapons Pact of the Blade grants proficiency in.

* I'm not sure how easy it is to entirely remove a spell, since in theory you should be able to use older books, which means Spirit Shroud is always hanging out there in Tasha's.

The combo is definitely overpowered, and it definitely needs to be nerfed, but there are several approaches for how to do so. Any of those changes could be done (though only one or two should be needed; definitely not all of them), but we don't know what the design goals of WotC are in this matter.

Sure, but
A.) I don’t think getting rid of the third attack in thirsting blade is the right way to go about it, because that would bring the bladelock back to having to spend a ton of character building resources (Invocations, spells known, etc) just to barely keep up with Eldritch Blast damage. Ans
B.) My point was that “warlocks get 9th level spells, three attacks, and the best cantrip in the game” is incredibly misleading phrasing. They have had all three of those things for a decade and nobody cared. Because those things aren’t actually a problem with the way the Warlock is designed. If there’s a problem, it’s in the interaction between several moving parts, all of which come at the opportunity cost, and none of which really have anything to do with Eldritch Blast or Mystic Arcanum.

 

[Charlaquin]

technically true, though you must be within 10 feet of the target, and that may be difficult to maintain without getting put into melee.

Nothing in the Pact of the Blade setup people are freaking out over makes it any more survivable in melee than the Eldritch Blast setup is anyway, so

 

[Stalker0]

Nothing in the Pact of the Blade setup people are freaking out over makes it any more survivable in melee than the Eldritch Blast setup is anyway, so

well other than the fact that your EB is at disadvantage on all attacks in melee....and you don't get to recover hitpoints with every attack like with your melee weapon....so there's that.

 

[Mistwell]

What adders are you talking about, exactly, that can be added to a warlock’s pact weapon attacks and can’t be added to eldritch blasts?

Have you not been following the thread? Lifedrinker, Spirit Shroud, Graze, Eldritch Smite, Great Weapon Master, magic weapons, etc.. Come on, I know you know there are tons more options to increase weapon damage that just don't exist for EB. Treantmonk's calculation was 66 damage per round at 13th level, before even looking at subclasses!

Then why haven’t we been seeing these same complaints about the Warlock out damaging the ranger this past decade?

Because they never had these changes in the past. Obviously. What is it you think we're discussing here?

 

[Baumi]

I think its fine that Warlock does more damage than a Barbarian or Fighter. After all he is an absolute Glass Cannon at that point. No spells slots for Defense, d8 HD, light Armor and no Class Features that help his survivability. And worst of all .. if he gets no short rest he does not even have his superior damage.

Lets not forget what the martials get in addition to the default hight Weapon Damage, high AC and HP .. the fighter allone gets stuff like Action Surge, Second Wind, Advantage On Attacks after a Failed roll, Weapon Mastery switch, Maneuvers,...

I personaly like that you can play a Gish-Warlock, but I surly would never want to forgo all my limited spell-slots just to buff my attacks, that would defeat the purpose of all my cool know spells. I think the above min-maxing is a whiteroom calculation that we will not see in real life and even if we do, the problem lies in the Spell-Buff like Spirit Shroud which just cries for Munchkins (made for single Attack casters in mind, which of course wil be OP if someone gets extra Attacks).

 

[Pauln6]

I think its fine that Warlock does more damage than a Barbarian or Fighter. After all he is an absolute Glass Cannon at that point. No spells slots for Defense, d8 HD, light Armor and no Class Features that help his survivability. And worst of all .. if he gets no short rest he does not even have his superior damage.

Lets not forget what the martials get in addition to the default hight Weapon Damage, high AC and HP .. the fighter allone gets stuff like Action Surge, Second Wind, Advantage On Attacks after a Failed roll, Weapon Mastery switch, Maneuvers,...

I personaly like that you can play a Gish-Warlock, but I surly would never want to forgo all my limited spell-slots just to buff my attacks, that would defeat the purpose of all my cool know spells. I think the above min-maxing is a whiteroom calculation that we will not see in real life and even if we do, the problem lies in the Spell-Buff like Spirit Shroud which just cries for Munchkins (made for single Attack casters in mind, which of course wil be OP if someone gets extra Attacks).

In practice though that's poor design. That glass cannon gets to deal all that extra damage to overshadow other characters whose primary function is melee damage and then soaks up other group resources to stay in the game to continue overshadowing.

It's true that Warlock players were not screaming for a third melee attack. This looks to fix a problem that wasn't there. It's disappointing to see Eldritch Blast return to character level instead of class level in this packet as well, since that fixed a problem that HAD been highlighted multiple times.

 

[Remathilis]

I mean, again, it doesn’t really do anything the Warlock couldn’t already do with Eldritch Blast. So pardon me if I find it kind of laughable that only now, after a decade, are people suddenly discovering that it’s apparently so OP, especially when the complaint up until now has been the opposite.

Please point me to where eldritch blast could get action free healing, the powers of a flame tongue or other magical weapon, and sap, graze or topple properties. Oh, and it can do 2d6 damage base.