D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[UngeheuerLich]

or....we get them to update the actual language to make that actual truth

That would be preferable.

 

[Neonchameleon]

or....we get them to update the actual language to make that actual truth

This. And I'm going to put in my feedaback that they can just add the word "Spellcasting" before the words spell slot for sorcerer (and class lock Eldritch Blast).

And thanks to the new feat system a Straladin 7 is going to be able to beat up a Chaladin 6/Warlock 1 - one's a more offensive and the other's a more defensive build. I'm less worried about that than I am that the Chaladin is better at literally everything.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

It comes down to this:

The first few levels of a class tend to be very "good", as that establishes the character and the class. Multiclassing allows a character to get these early levels (and the juicy abilities they bestow) multiple times. So multiclassing tends to favor optimizers.

Because of multiclassing's mere existence, it also puts a constraint on what can be offered to a 1st-2nd level class, as you add "too much" and its makes multi-classing even stronger.

So it puts a design constraint on the game, which some people do not like.

Maybe the real problem is that the levels past 5 tend to be "bad" for non casters, so that you don't lose out on much by multiclassing? If martials classes were designed to have cooler and stronger features at higher levels, multiclassing would be far easier to balance.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Maybe the real problem is that the levels past 5 tend to be "bad" for non casters, so that you don't lose out on much by multiclassing? If martials classes were designed to have cooler and stronger features at higher levels, multiclassing would be far easier to balance.

Pretty much. Meanwhile the casters get actively stronger class features as they level (spells being class features of course). Martials get few features ever that wouldn't be appropriate in the first five levels, and this only works when they compound so you can use the class features all at the same time for a multiplicative effect rather than a simple additive one.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Year, even the good fighter subclass eventually gets 'the option you've already passed over twice' as a class feature.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Year, even the good fighter subclass eventually gets 'the option you've already passed over twice' as a class feature.

There are two potential mitigating circumstances.

• If Sentinel gave you extra attacks and Great Weapon Master let you hit harder when you attacked then Sentinel would be more valuable to a Great Weapon Master and vise-versa than either is as your first feat. The choice wouldn't be the same.
• If I already have Precision Strike and Ambush, taking Commander's Skills (or whatever it's called) at my third would allow me to use my resources in a new place

But in reality Great Weapon Master doesn't really help Sentinel or vise-versa (other than with the +1 Str) and in the 2014 Battlemaster I basically am picking new ways to stab someone using the same resource pool. It's more like being able to pick Thunderwave when I already have Burning Hands.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Maybe the real problem is that the levels past 5 tend to be "bad" for non casters, so that you don't lose out on much by multiclassing? If martials classes were designed to have cooler and stronger features at higher levels, multiclassing would be far easier to balance.

Yes. Some buffs would be nice. But then, if you decide to go back to caster level 1 as level 6 char, you could ask yourself why you are not a level 6 caster already...

So the better course of action is playimg your char and improve what they are good at.

All that does not mean, better high level abilities are not needed. But the line of argumentation that you can just switch to be a level 1 caster after martial 5 seems totally flawed. A fighter gets a feat at level 6 and 8, which is a big power upgrade. Little things stack.
Also keep in mind, you need int, wis or cha at 13+ to become a spellcaster at that point. And it should be even higher if you want to be a great spellcaster...

 

[Kurotowa]

The full Treantmonk Bladelock analysis video is out, and I have problems with it.

He assumes that Blade Pact lets you qualify for feats with "Proficiency with a martial weapon" requirements like GWM. I strongly disagree with this interpretation. Temporary spell granted proficiencies do not count for feat requirements.

His math assumes 100% uptime on Spirit Shroud. Between limited spell slots and the need to make Concentration checks from being in melee, that's an over optimistic assumption. Also it's bringing pre-revision material into a post-revision environment, which I strongly suspect a lot of DMs are going to put limits on.

His math assumes you will Eldritch Smith on every crit. This is literally impossible when you have as few spell slots as the Warlock and are already devoting at least one per combat to Spirit Shroud. This is particularly egregious.

With those three components removed the math looks very different from what he proposes. So before anyone cites his conclusion in forum posts or the survey forms, or accuses the devs of having no ability to balance their material, take all that into consideration. These numbers are not reliable.

 

[Charlaquin]

The full Treantmonk Bladelock analysis video is out, and I have problems with it.

He assumes that Blade Pact lets you qualify for feats with "Proficiency with a martial weapon" requirements like GWM. I strongly disagree with this interpretation. Temporary spell granted proficiencies do not count for feat requirements.

His math assumes 100% uptime on Spirit Shroud. Between limited spell slots and the need to make Concentration checks from being in melee, that's an over optimistic assumption. Also it's bringing pre-revision material into a post-revision environment, which I strongly suspect a lot of DMs are going to put limits on.

His math assumes you will Eldritch Smith on every crit. This is literally impossible when you have as few spell slots as the Warlock and are already devoting at least one per combat to Spirit Shroud. This is particularly egregious.

With those three components removed the math looks very different from what he proposes. So before anyone cites his conclusion in forum posts or the survey forms, or accuses the devs of having no ability to balance their material, take all that into consideration. These numbers are not reliable.

Yeah, I find Treantmonk often makes dubious assumptions in his DPR analyses.

 

[Mistwell]

For discussion purposes here is Treantmonks brief analysis of Pact of the Blade, for discussion purposes. Sorry if I miss something, and I will add Kurotowa's doubts here too:

He did his usual assessment set to 13th level. The level is arbitrary but it's held consistent for his analysis for each class/subclass as a simple test case comparison so he can put them all on one chart. He's not claiming it's completely fair or representative, just a simple test to sort of hold his finger in the air initially. Once they settle on stuff he does a much deeper dive at multiple levels and varies his assumptions.

His quick sample build, not fully optimized.

Species: Any, +2 Chr, +1 Con,
Stats: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Chr 17
Notes: Melee Heavy weapons requires a 13 str (Greatsword), Ranged heavy weapon requires 13 dex (Longbow. assumes magic unbonused one at 13th level I think)
First lev feat: Lightly armored (gives medium armor prof for half-plate)
4th lev ASI: Warcaster, chr now 18
8th lev ASI: Charisma +2 for chr 20
12th lev ASI: great weapon master [ Note: Kurotowa disputes they can access GWM due to only temporary Martial Weapon Proficiency ]
Invocations (8 of them): Pact of the Blade (Chr for attack and damage rolls, modify damage types, create weapon as bonus action);
Thirsting Blade (3 attacks with attack action; Lifedrinker (+1d6 damage and healing option); Eldritch smite (used for Crits, 12d8 extra damage on a crit); Otherworldly Leap (20 feet extra movement); three more invocations as you see fit (Agonizing and Repelling blast? Lessons of the First Ones for Tough or Alert? Whatever).

Melee: Greatsword: Graze Mastery, deliver Charisma Mod damage on a miss (5), Base Weapon Damage: 2d6,
Rd 1 Bonus Action, spend 1 of 3 pact slots on Spirit Shroud (5th lev) = +2d8 additional damage to attacks, 1 minute.
Close to Melee. Assuming 60% chance to hit:
Attack #1:
2d6+5 Base Weapon Damage
1d6 Lifedrinker
2d8 Sprit Shroud [Note: Kurotowa disputes Spirit Shroud up 100% of the time and, I assume, thinks this should be reduces by some percentage it's assumed it would be down due to a failed concentration save I assume]
24.5 Average Damage on a Hit
60% chance to hit x 24.5= 14.7 average
40% chance to miss (Graze) x 5 = 2 average
5% chance to Crit x 73.5 Damage for Crits (Eldritch Smite used on Crits) = 3.68 average [Note: Kurotowa disputes the assumption a spell slot will always be available to boost the crit damage here and this estimate should be reduced to reflect a more realistic number of times such a spell slot will be available]
Attack #1 total average damage: 20.38
Attack # 2: 20.38 average damage
Attack #3: 20.38 average damage
Great Weapon Master (Applies proficiency bonus to damage once per round): Chance of hitting at least once with 3 attacks = 94% x 5 (proficiency bonus) = 4.7 damage average per round.
Total Damage Per Round: 65. 84 average (20.38 + 20.38 + 20.38 + 4.7)
Reference: Berserker Barbarian, Beast Master Ranger, Champion Fighter, Assassin Rogue, and Devotion Paladin are all doing around 28 damage per round at this level. 147% over "baseline" which is a Warlock using Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and Hex.

Ranged: Longbow (moontouched or whatever, assumes no magic bonus to hit and damage just base 1d8+5 damage). Includes Slow Mastery, which is nice but not changing DPR calculation.
Rd 1 Bonus Action: Hex (same as baseline attack)
Attack #1 1d8+5
1d6 Lifedrinker
1d6 Hex
Total average damage for a hit = 16.5
60% chance to hit = 9.9 average damage
5% chance to crit (Eldritch Smite used on Crits) 89.5 damage on crit = 4.48 average [BUT SEE BELOW]
Attack #1 total average damage: 14.38
Attack #2 total average damage: 14.38
Attack #3 total average damage: 14.38
Great Weapon Master (Applies proficiency bonus to damage once per round - and yes, it now applies to a longbow too): Chance of hitting at least once with 3 attacks = 94% x 5 (proficiency bonus) = 4.7 damage average per round.
Total Damage Per Round: 47.84 average (14.38 + 14.38 + 14.38 + 4.7), which is 79% more than Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and Hex.

Now Eldritch Smite can use more spell slots. So lets assume for this one you never took Eldritch Smite and that big boost on crits goes away. Crits are now 5% x 12.5 = 0.63. New total is 36.59, which is still 37% more than Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex. And you're Slowing Target (Weapon Mastery) rather than pushing Target (Repelling Blast). And getting more range from longbow than Eldritch Blast. Bottom Line: why use Eldritch Blast anymore when this does a lot more damage for just one more invocation involved really?

He concludes with this about this build"

1. Pact of the Blade Warlocks Outdamage all other tested classes by a lot
2. Has Switchable Damage Types (four, changeable each attack)
3. Has it's bonus action available most rounds beyond first
4. Has faster movement, same speed as same level monk
5. Has three more invocation options left to choose (Lessons of the First Ones to access feats without pre-requisites so can get something like Tough to get HP close to barbarians, Lucky, Alert to win initiative, etc.)
6. Can switch between melee and ranged easily with one bonus action
7. Can access every weapon mastery with bonus action (which is better than fighters get - can just switch to Topple or Push or Graze each round)
8. Has in combat no-action healing (Lifedrinker)
9. Still has spells (will eventually get 9th level spells)

And all this he didn't even add in extra attacks from heavy weapon master, or any subclass boosts like from Genie,.

His quick recommendations:
Lifedrinker should require level 11
Thirsting Blade shouldn't scale at level 11

I think it's implied, but he doesn't state it, that maybe this is too many weapon attacks per round with weapons for a spellcasting class?

I also think we could re-do this assuming 100% of Kurotowa's doubts are applied. So probably assume Spirit Shroud is down 20% of the time, assume 3 battles between short rests instead of 2 so reduce the boosted crit such that 1/3 of it would be only a non-boosted crit (?), and assume no GWM but another feat?

I am still betting the numbers come out so far ahead of any other class it still raises an eyebrow of concern.