• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E The Magical Martial

Vaalingrade

Legend
What is the benefit to making literally everything that isn't considered humanly achievable by your typical 40+ D&D player magic and supernatural?

Since we're at the place where anything that doesn't and/or won't exist in real life, anything done by elves or other fantastic species or even D&D humans is automatically supernatural. You can't eat cereal as an elf on Earth? Eating cereal is supernatural.

So everything is supernatural.

And when everything is supernatural, nothing is.

So what's the point? Just to put the last nail in the coffin of the fantastic where verisimilitude hasn't managed these past 15-20 years since it was weaponized?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Chaosmancer

Legend
Again, the spirits literally come from a spirit world and described in-universe as supernatural. That's why the Avatar exists: the bridge the two.

This is overthinking it to an extreme.

The litmus test is whether the setting considers an element supernatural, not what we think about it personally.


Most settings consider it to be an ancient magic. Spellwright by Blake Charlton comes close to your question by having writing another language be the core of it's spellcasting system, so yes, speaking another language can be supernatural.


Now you're going the other direction where you're saying 'natural' means 'existing'.

I mean, natural in terms of our real world IS existing. Quasars sending gamma pulses through the potential infinity of space is grand and epic... and they exist and are therefore natural.

I won't deny this is a bit of overthinking, but it comes with a purpose. For example talking to a fire spirit in the language of fire is supernatural in the Spellwright series you just mentioned, but is speaking to a magma mephit in Ignan supernatural in DnD? I've read stories where a wizard is merely someone who makes deals with spirits, and the spirits do the effects, such as how Shintoism handles it. Would it then be supernatural to speak to the fey and have them use their magic? That is how a wizard works in that setting?

I don't particularly think the definition matters, we don't need this to be answered, to actually move forward with making abilities, but it does start to show the problem with using the word only as the people in the setting might use it. Especially since, the words used by the setting are the words WE use for it.

In DnD, no one would find it supernatural to make a healing potion, or to learn wizardry, or at least no one would find those any more supernatural than we find medicinal teas and engineers. Yet, the effect they have is clearly meant to invoke magic and the supernatural. And what of Sci-Fi? Fate Manipulators exist in Sci-Fi, and many times they are presented as though what they are doing is mere technology and knowledge, but in a fantasy setting, that would be considered supernatural. If I wanted to port these things into a game... which term should I use?

And, the best part about having supernatural be from the perspective of the readership/players is that there can be no debate about it. You cannot truly debate if wizardry in DnD is supernatural or natural if you are taking the position of the reader looking in, because no one in our world can summon creatures through portals or form ice out of thin air with mere words and gestures. It is a clear, easily defined, and consistent line. Is it possible IRL? Y/N. Meanwhile, if you take it from "is this supernatural in terms of the world" then you could have one person lighting their fists on fire, and that is entirely natural, and the other person lighting their fists on fire being supernatural. Which is weird, and not helpful for defining the abilities.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
But I don't think anyone is calling for Second personas... Yet

What is being asked for is "My level 10 warmaster has 30 Brainpower. I spend 5 Brainpower to have a contingency plan against fiends and undead."

Or simply say "Spend X, ignore natural penalties and get bonus.

Well, I can see being able to retroactively have an item you could have theoretically planned for being perceived as a bit beyond what a normal person can do. That sort of "off-screen, I prepared for this" ability often is what meta-currency is about.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
To me, whether or not an action is possible in real life matters and should be acknowledged. To you, it doesn't, and acknowledgement is unnecessary and apparently damaging to your fun. That's all this is.

And yet you keep declaring that our explanation is wrong and bad, all because you first want it be acknowledge that is needs to be MAGICAL training, because normal training can't lead to those results in the normal IRL world. Of which none of the game takes place on.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
What is the benefit to making literally everything that isn't considered humanly achievable by your typical 40+ D&D player magic and supernatural?

Since we're at the place where anything that doesn't and/or won't exist in real life, anything done by elves or other fantastic species or even D&D humans is automatically supernatural. You can't eat cereal as an elf on Earth? Eating cereal is supernatural.

So everything is supernatural.

And when everything is supernatural, nothing is.

So what's the point? Just to put the last nail in the coffin of the fantastic where verisimilitude hasn't managed these past 15-20 years since it was weaponized?

Honestly, I want the opposite.

Once we are past the point where we have to consider what is possible for an earth human to accomplish, we can finally shatter verisimilitude. Because yeah, my human fighter just used a human-sized statue as a greatclub, it makes sense in the world, and it doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense on earth.

If it takes being a supernatural person eating supernatural carrots and breathing supernatural air while under a supernatural sun to finally break this artificial ceiling... then I'm all for it. Because I want those abilities, I want to break these shackles and finally see the type of fantasy world I envision.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
And yet you keep declaring that our explanation is wrong and bad, all because you first want it be acknowledge that is needs to be MAGICAL training, because normal training can't lead to those results in the normal IRL world. Of which none of the game takes place on.
I don't like your explanation, and I wouldn't enjoy a game using it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for you.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Honestly, I want the opposite.

Once we are past the point where we have to consider what is possible for an earth human to accomplish, we can finally shatter verisimilitude. Because yeah, my human fighter just used a human-sized statue as a greatclub, it makes sense in the world, and it doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense on earth.

If it takes being a supernatural person eating supernatural carrots and breathing supernatural air while under a supernatural sun to finally break this artificial ceiling... then I'm all for it. Because I want those abilities, I want to break these shackles and finally see the type of fantasy world I envision.
That's literally all I'm asking. You want supernatural abilities, then accepting a supernatural explanation shouldn't be anathema, at least I don't see why it would be.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
That's literally all I'm asking. You want supernatural abilities, then accepting a supernatural explanation shouldn't be anathema, at least I don't see why it would be.
because you don't seem to want to accept that the 'mundane supernatural' exists in the fantasy world, unless we stick supernatural infront of every word to drive the point to bedrock that this isn't earth with earth humans and earth limits.

we don't want to need to stick supernatural in front of every single word to justify it for you cause it's still a guy swinging a sword real good or being strong or sneaky and that shouldn't need extra magic in fantasyland because everything has magic so those things are the most 'nonmagical ordinary' you can get while still being extraordinary.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
because you don't seem to want to accept that the 'mundane supernatural' exists in the fantasy world, unless we stick supernatural infront of every word to drive the point to bedrock that this isn't earth with earth humans and earth limits.

we don't want to need to stick supernatural in front of every single word to justify it for you cause it's still a guy swinging a sword real good or being strong or sneaky and that shouldn't need extra magic in fantasyland because everything has magic so those things are the most 'nonmagical ordinary' you can get while still being extraordinary.
So why can't the book say, "the world is full of magic, and everyone in it can develop superhuman/supernatural/magical abilities with time and training"? I mean, that's the truth of your position, and in my stance you only have to say it once in the right place (maybe twice in the descriptions of otherwise non-supernatural classes). I'm hardly asking that it be put in front of every ability. A note explaining that "magical" means like a spell, and thus can be affected by things that can affect spells, would be nice too, but leave it off if definitions are that much of a burden.
 

So why can't the book say, "the world is full of magic, and everyone in it can develop superhuman/supernatural/magical abilities with time and training"? I mean, that's the truth of your position, and in my stance you only have to say it once in the right place (maybe twice in the descriptions of otherwise non-supernatural classes). I'm hardly asking that it be put in front of every ability. A note explaining that "magical" means like a spell, and thus can be affected by things that can affect spells, would be nice too, but leave it off if definitions are that much of a burden.
Because D&D wants to empower DMs to define their world however they like. If a rule conflicts with your world view, a DM can simply house rule it away.
 

Remove ads

Top