D&D 5E The Lords of the Nine Hells of Baator

[dave2008]

Zariel is CR 26 officially. Given she is an actual Warrior why do you have her weaker than many of the others?

All of these are stated as A5e Elite monsters which equal O5e Mythic monsters. At CR 24 Elite (124,000 XP) she is stronger the the official CR 26 (90,000 XP). Also, notice most half these archdevils are CR 24. It is not until we get to the 5th layer that the start climbing to CR 25.

Also, I found CR 26 to be to high given the "official" Demogorgon was only CR 27. I am correcting that shortly though.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

All of these are stated as A5e Elite monsters which equal O5e Mythic monsters. At CR 24 Elite (124,000 XP) she is stronger the the official CR 26 (90,000 XP). Also, notice most half these archdevils are CR 24. It is not until we get to the 5th layer that the start climbing to CR 25.

Also, I found CR 26 to be to high given the "official" Demogorgon was only CR 27. I am correcting that shortly though.

I just disagree she would be weaker than Levistus or Geryon. From how it's talked she's one of the stronger Lords of the Nine.

 

[cbwjm]

If I was going to rate the general power of the lords, I'd probably put them all at the same CR with Mephistopheles +1CR higher, and Asmodeus +2 CR higher (I ignore his god status). Makes Asmodeus more powerful but he still needs to play the others of against each other to maintain his power.

 

[dave2008]

If I was going to rate the general power of the lords, I'd probably put them all at the same CR with Mephistopheles +1CR higher, and Asmodeus +2 CR higher (I ignore his god status). Makes Asmodeus more powerful but he still needs to play the others of against each other to maintain his power.

Thanks for the input. That is not to far off from what I have done. I have half at CR 24 and then the build up from there. So it looks like:

Layer of Hell	Lord CR
1st	24
2nd	24
3rd	24
4th	24/24
5th	25
6th	26
7th	27
8th	28
9th	29

I could see bumping these up so that 1st - 6th are all CR 25 or 26. I think I want Baalz., Meph., & Asmo. to have higher CRs than the rest. I am also thinking about giving Asmo. a bit more of a bump. So maybe (for historical reference see post #15):

Layer of Hell	Lord CR
1st	26
2nd	26
3rd	26
4th	26/26
5th	26
6th	26
7th	27
8th	28
9th	30

 

[dave2008]

For reference, here are the CRs for the Lords from 3e:

Layer of Hell (Lord)	Lord CR (BoVD)*	Lord CR (FC:ToH)*
1st (Bel)	20	20
2nd (Dispater)	26	21
3rd (Mammon)	25	21
4th (Belial & Fernia)	24/24	21 & 19
5th (Levistus)	25	21
6th (Hag Countess/Glaysa)	22 (Hag)	22 (Glaysa)
7th (Baalzebul)	29	23
8th (Mephistopheles)	29	24
9th (Asmodeus	32	27

*Book of Vile Darkness
** Fiendish Codex: Tyrants of Hell

 

[dave2008]

I just disagree she would be weaker than Levistus or Geryon. From how it's talked she's one of the stronger Lords of the Nine.

Zariel is a tough one because 5e is the first edition when she has made a real appearance. She was referenced in 3e, but she had been replaced by Bel, who is most definitely a warrior type. Bell has historically been on of the weaker Lords (see my post #15) and because he replaced Zariel we might assume she has a similar CR. So that could make her one of the weaker Lords. Also, historically the Lords generally get stronger the deeper into Hell you go. That was strictly true in the Fiendish Codex, but less so in the Book of Vile Darkness.

If we extrapolate the above information into 5e, then we might expect Bel and Zariel to have similar CRs, and they do "officially" (CR 25 & CR 26 respectively). If Bel is near the bottom of the Lord rankings, which he always has been, that suggest the rest of the Nine are at or above Zariel's CR.

However, I think my ranks may need some adjustment. I am in general agreement with @cbwjm that most of the Lords should have a similar CR. That would bring Zariel up on par with most of Nine. So I am thinking of raising most of them a bit. Something like this:

Layer of Hell (Lord)	Lord CR (5e)
1st (Bel / Zariel)	25/26
2nd (Dispater)	26
3rd (Mammon)	26
4th (Belial & Fernia)	26/26
5th (Levistus)	26
6th (Glaysa)	26
7th (Baalzebul)	27
8th (Mephistopheles)	28
9th (Asmodeus)	30

What do you think?

 

[dave2008]

@Micah Sweet , I am not sure if you care much about the Blood War and infernal politics, but since I know your more of a lore person than I am: I was wondering what you thought about my rankings and if there is any clever way to advance the lore of the Nine Hells of Baator.

I would like to add some lore to these entries at some point and would love your thoughts (and hope to get you into a positive discussion too!).

Zariel is a tough one because 5e is the first edition when she has made a real appearance. She was referenced in 3e, but she had been replaced by Bel, who is most definitely a warrior type. Bell has historically been on of the weaker Lords (see my post #15) and because he replaced Zariel we might assume she has a similar CR. So that could make her one of the weaker Lords. Also, historically the Lords generally get stronger the deeper into Hell you go. That was strictly true in the Fiendish Codex, but less so in the Book of Vile Darkness.

If we extrapolate the above information into 5e, then we might expect Bel and Zariel to have similar CRs, and they do "officially" (CR 25 & CR 26 respectively). If Bel is near the bottom of the Lord rankings, which he always has been, that suggest the rest of the Nine are at or above Zariel's CR.

However, I think my ranks may need some adjustment. I am in general agreement with @cbwjm that most of the Lords should have a similar CR. That would bring Zariel up on par with most of Nine. So I am thinking of raising most of them a bit. Something like this:

Layer of Hell (Lord)	Lord CR (5e)
1st (Bel / Zariel)	25/26
2nd (Dispater)	26
3rd (Mammon)	26
4th (Belial & Fernia)	26/26
5th (Levistus)	26
6th (Glaysa)	26
7th (Baalzebul)	27
8th (Mephistopheles)	28
9th (Asmodeus)	30

What do you think?

 

[Micah Sweet]

@Micah Sweet , I am not sure if you care much about the Blood War and infernal politics, but since I know your more of a lore person than I am: I was wondering what you thought about my rankings and if there is any clever way to advance the lore of the Nine Hells of Baator.

I would like to add some lore to these entries at some point and would love your thoughts (and hope to get you into a positive discussion too!).

Sounds great! Let me give it some thought.

 

[Stalker0]

How "done" are these? Was going to give feedback on Asmodeus but I wasn't sure how baked in the stats were or if they were still rough

 

[Micah Sweet]

@Micah Sweet , I am not sure if you care much about the Blood War and infernal politics, but since I know your more of a lore person than I am: I was wondering what you thought about my rankings and if there is any clever way to advance the lore of the Nine Hells of Baator.

I would like to add some lore to these entries at some point and would love your thoughts (and hope to get you into a positive discussion too!).

I think the first thing to remember is that Asmodeus chooses the Lords of the Nine. He put Bel in place, he put Glasya in place, he threw down Geryon and replaced him with Levistus. This is all to say that you do not need to abide by a CR progression completely. If it makes more sense to you that a lower Lord is lower CR than a higher one, go forward with that.

Also, Zariel's CR as depicted in official 5e materials is, as you know, not a straightjacket, so you can adjust the Lords as you see fit. I've always seen Bella as a placeholder, put there perhaps because Zariel wasn't really ready for Lordship.

I need to do some research. Thank you so much for reaching out!