D&D General The Linear Fighter/Quadratic Wizard Problem

[Celebrim]

If your position was correct, an anti-magic field would instant annihilate everything in its area. All dirt, rock, creatures, everything would go.

Would an artifact?

 

[Maxperson]

Would an artifact?

If the physicality of artifact itself was magical, yes it would vanish under your interpretation. It's not, so it doesn't. Artifacts only contain magic, though very powerful magic. By 5e rule only the magic effects created by an artifact are not suppressed, which means that spell effect must originate outside of the antimagic field, because the artifact itself is not immune and would not be able to generate an effect from within.

"Spells and other magical effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the sphere and can't protrude into it."

 

[Celebrim]

A ghoul is not magical. Some of them can be created through magic. Others arise spontaneously. The result, though, is an undead creature connected to the negative plane.

A mundane undead creature connected to the negative elemental plane? A mundane sentient creature made of ever burning fire? Surely these prove that what is mundane in the D&D universe is not what is mundane in ours? Or do you think that undead creatures connected to the negative elemental plane are bound by the laws of physics as we know them? And if you concede that an undead creature or a fire elemental are not bound by the laws of physics as we know them, why do you insist that you know the laws of physics as we know them apply in the D&D universe? Since you like proofs, prove that assertion!

And if your mind happily writes "that an undead creature connected to the negative plane" is "not magical" why do you balk at the idea that a fighter who can run at 30mph or jump 12 meters in a bound is also within the terms of D&D "not magical"? Why are you happy to accept that the fighter that can out wrestle a bear and punch it to death is "not magical", but the same fighter running at 30mph requires appeal to magic?

Ghouls have some innate magical ability, but that does not make them magical.

Do you hear yourself?

 

[Celebrim]

"Spells and other magical effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the sphere and can't protrude into it."

Perhaps it is the case that in the D&D universe dirt, rocks, grass and creatures are artifacts created by a deity. As Gandalf put it, "The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"

 

[Maxperson]

Perhaps it is the case that in the D&D universe dirt, rocks, grass and creatures are artifacts created by a deity. As Gandalf put it, "The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"

You'll need to prove that. You're the one making an exceptional claim that is not backed up in any edition of D&D ever made. You need to prove your position. I've shown plenty of solid evidence of mine.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A level 15 party is fighting a pair of fire giants.

The fighter runs up to the frontmost giant and uses his 3 attacks to disarm, shove down, and shove back the monster. All three attacks hit the giant's 18 AC due to the cleric's prebattle buffs.

The fighter opts to upgrade the last shove to a Copper Dragonstrike. His greatsword hits the giant's leg and head armor hard. The giant is now slowed and must beat the fighter's DC at the end of turn to end the slow. The giant was also disarmed, knocked prone, and is 5 feet from his weapon.

Got it, thanks for the example!

First, I like a system like this.

Second, I would still have the attacks "deal damage". One thing about Hit Points being abstract is they can represent a creature's decreasing morale. In your example, the first attack disarms the giant (the damage is demoralizing for losing its weapon), the second shoved down (the damage is knowing you are more vulnerable), and third shove back (damage is the giant is pushed out of position and increases vulnerability).

Since "hits" don't have to actually hit (the damage is the target avoiding lethality), I think such a system still works. With cumulative hits, the pressure against the target mounts, allowing you to do more "impressive maneuvers/effects".

 

[Baron Opal II]

You'll need to prove that. You're the one making an exceptional claim that is not backed up in any edition of D&D ever made. You need to prove your position. I've shown plenty of solid evidence of mine.

No, you haven't. You are making a specious argument that isn't actually addressing his points.

Sort of. I don't want to mirror science or physics, but I want it to be a reasonable approximation. I want people to fall and take some damage when the floor drops them into a pit. I don't need to figure out their velocity upon impact.
...
This is D&D. In D&D unless you become supernaturally good at something, you are limited. A fighter should be capable of some amazing things, but if they surpass human limits, it is by definition supernatural(magic), because those limits are natural. You can't have it both ways. You can't exceed human limits and then want it to be a mundane ability.

It is statistically probably that a 10th level fighter will survive a 100 ft. fall. This demonstrably surpasses human limits. By your definition 10th level fighters are inherently magical, correct?

 

[Maxperson]

No, you haven't. You are making a specious argument that isn't actually addressing his points.

His point is that D&D is not D&D, it's some other game where everything is magical, including dirt, diamond, the air, the nanny's hairbrush. Everything. And not even passive magic. Overt magic that can result in normal giant spiders having the magical ability to walk on walls.

It is statistically probably that a 10th level fighter will survive a 100 ft. fall. This demonstrably surpasses human limits. By your definition 10th level fighters are inherently magical, correct?

No. Hit points are one of those things where you have to hold your nose and grin, because they mess things up if you don't. They are mostly non-physical, so that fighter is just getting super lucky or has a god cushioning the fall or whatever so that he survives. He's not actually falling uncontrolled like a human in our world is. If he was, at 100 feet he would splat regardless. Hit points are not all meat, which is what would be necessary for what you say there to be true.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

Got it, thanks for the example!

First, I like a system like this.

Second, I would still have the attacks "deal damage". One thing about Hit Points being abstract is they can represent a creature's decreasing morale. In your example, the first attack disarms the giant (the damage is demoralizing for losing its weapon), the second shoved down (the damage is knowing you are more vulnerable), and third shove back (damage is the giant is pushed out of position and increases vulnerability).

Since "hits" don't have to actually hit (the damage is the target avoiding lethality), I think such a system still works. With cumulative hits, the pressure against the target mounts, allowing you to do more "impressive maneuvers/effects".

100% agreed. Just let maneuvers like shove and disarm occur along with normal damage, still gain points for those occurring successfully, as you generate additional "leverage" or "advantage" over the opponent. Turn those in for stronger effects (but imho not just more damage). Seems fun, thematic, rewards the kind of combat that I personally love to see and makes the DM's job of describing the action in a compelling way much, much easier. Meanwhile it makes high level martial characters terrifying to face in combat in a way which seems, frankly, appropriate.

 

[Baron Opal II]

His point is that D&D is not D&D, it's some other game where everything is magical, including dirt, diamond, the air, the nanny's hairbrush. Everything.

No, he's not. You are arguing that obviously magical or supernatural things are not, like ghouls. Your desire to win the argument has lead you to ignore the goal of the exercise. You aren't interested in finding a solution to the problem, in no small part because you don't believe there is one. Anything that smells of challenge to your gaming worldview you seem to need to confront, even when you could simply ignore the discussion. You aren't helping to find a solution, you're just being a pain in the neck.

No. Hit points are one of those things where you have to hold your nose and grin, because they mess things up if you don't. They are mostly non-physical, so that fighter is just getting super lucky or has a god cushioning the fall or whatever so that he survives. He's not actually falling uncontrolled like a human in our world is. If he was, at 100 feet he would splat regardless. Hit points are not all meat, which is what would be necessary for what you say there to be true.

Right, the thing that is obviously not mundane we'll handwave for gaming sake. The thing that is obviously supernatural we'll call mundane because that's truly D&D.

Right...