D&D General The First Demise of TSR: Gygax's Folly

[Umbran]

My neck of the woods that woukd be a nothing burger. Parents blew up at kids was essentially the default at least occasionally. Alot worse was also the default in a lot of homes.

Still better than 1980s lol.
Ideal world sure. Let me know when the worlds ideal. Context matters.

Drunk raging parent figure blowing was just another Tuesday. That's all I had to deal with friends got it so much worse.

Mod Note:
I am sorry that you had to go through that. But, whatever your intent, this is reading to some like you are saying that, since it was everyday, it was no big deal. Drunken shouting at kids is a big deal, no matter how common. And to the kid on the receiving end of it, the context is abusive parental behavior. It happening more often doesn't make it less abusive.

Please do not position abusive parental behavior as dismissible on these boards. Thanks.

 

[TiQuinn]

I've never heard of anybody idolizing Williams.

Look at the differences between Williams and Gygax - Williams never sought recognition or idolization. Gygax was very much about being front and center in the community. It’s hard to find someone as likable if you only see them through business decisions, and who apparently was very content not to be part of the greater TTRPG community.

 

[Zardnaar]

More people living in Ivory Towers.

Rewatched breakfast Club recently and reading lyrics from Gen X songs eg grunge. I knew a John Bender well more than 1.

Whole other world out there people here just don't/can't comprehend.

 

[Sacrosanct]

More people living in Ivory Towers.

Rewatched breakfast Club recently and reading lyrics from Gen X songs eg grunge. I knew a John Bender well more than 1.

Whole other world out there people here just don't/can't comprehend.

You seem to be making an assumption that everyone disagreeing with you had plush comfortable childhoods. No dude, you're not the only one to have an abusive experience growing up. My dad should be in prison. For lots of things. It's because of those experiences why I'm so against abuse. (It's even worse since it was at the workplace, not just at home, in front of executive leadership).

So you can just stop with this nonsense, please.

 

[Dire Bare]

More people living in Ivory Towers.

Rewatched breakfast Club recently and reading lyrics from Gen X songs eg grunge. I knew a John Bender well more than 1.

Whole other world out there people here just don't/can't comprehend.

Not blithely accepting abuse is living in an Ivory Tower?

Okay.

 

[CellarHeroes]

More people living in Ivory Towers.

Rewatched breakfast Club recently and reading lyrics from Gen X songs eg grunge. I knew a John Bender well more than 1.

Whole other world out there people here just don't/can't comprehend.

I imagine there are a number of us Gen X kids who share these experiences here. At least, in my experience, that's how I met other gamers in my community. There were more than a few at the counseling group my brother and I had to attend. While in college the majority of the gaming student organization came from similar backgrounds.

I don't think it's a matter of people here not comprehending, I believe that we reacted differently to the experience. To be frank, I'm in the camp that says "those were the times". The reason those WERE the times, is because a lot of us grew up learning that what happened was actually pretty bad through counseling, after school specials, and just seeing how our friends lived. Some of us grew up and look back at that time and shrug, while moving on and vowing not to put someone else through that same experience. Others grew up angry that it ever happened, and are disgusted whenever they hear about it. My brother and I are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum with how we dealt with it.

 

[MGibster]

Rewatched breakfast Club recently and reading lyrics from Gen X songs eg grunge. I knew a John Bender well more than 1.

The Breakfast Club came out in 1985, so there isn't a single grunge song on the soundtrack.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The Breakfast Club came out in 1985, so there isn't a single grunge song on the soundtrack.

I don't think they were saying that. A few commas seem to be missing from that sentence.

 

[BruceWright]

I think as a society we suffer too much from “great man theory”.

A lot of people brought their own creativity to make D&D, including Gygax.

Did he contribute more than all the others combined? Maybe so at some early point.

a problem with Great Man theory is that it requires constant maintenance to keep up that fiction. And it requires that the Great Man be regarded as Great in all aspects of the Great Work.

And it seems Gary believed the fiction himself. I think most do.

But if Great Man theory was correct, surely he could have made a hit product after he left TSR.

 

[Willie the Duck]

a problem with Great Man theory is that it requires constant maintenance to keep up that fiction. And it requires that the Great Man be regarded as Great in all aspects of the Great Work.

And it seems Gary believed the fiction himself. I think most do.

But if Great Man theory was correct, surely he could have made a hit product after he left TSR.

I agree with the overall point, but I don't think the last bit is the necessary component. Gary's greatness in game design could have been completely wedded to the D&D model, and once he lost the ability to design in that framework*, he was SOL. Likewise, he could have left TSR and made the next big RPG hit** and that wouldn't make the Great Man theory true.
*I'm reminded of the plausibility of this every time Paul Simon -in an interview -insists that, no, Art Garfunkel wasn't a lessor partner when they were collaborating and that his contributions were vital to the success of their works -- he just was hugely less able to adapt to a solo career than Simon was.
**I don't know, written Vampire: the Masquerade instead of Rein·Hagen, et al.

The functional component, IMO, is that Gary wasn't Great in all aspects of the Great Work -- notably in the tasks of showing leadership skills for a large corporation. He could, at least once, make* a game that people fell in love with. Full stop. Everything after that ranged from acceptable** to horrific (events leading to OP scenario).
*quibbling over how much of it was him aside.
**I haven't heard that he was actively bad at running TSR when it was a 2-2 dozen person organization