D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[Zardnaar]

What I hate is even if you like being a healer, healing spells just aren't efficient and you're better off casting most anything else outside of the occasional level 1 Healing Word to get a fallen guy back up for a round.

But that ship has sailed, and when I complain about it, I keep getting told "that's a feature", lol.

Yup that's a problem with 5E imho.

Had a cleric last night cast a clw spell that fully restored a fighter.
Technically you can do tgat in 5E but +1 to hit and 1d6 damage is a lot different than 5E Mook type monsters.

 

[James Gasik]

Thinks such as jedi ind tricks and fear generally should have that saving throw and/or supernatural origin if it's limited in sone.

Eg a Fighter infused with the underworld could have a fear effect similar to turn undead.
Marking type mechanics should probably be on specific subclasses.

Which is how they are handled now, but the issue I've noted is, if you give someone a choice between being a damage dealer or a protector, a lot of people choose violence, lol.

Which creates a paradigm that if you're a caster, you need to tend to your own defense, you can't rely on someone to do (or even be able to) do it for you.

Which means if you knock casters back down to AD&D levels of survivability without changing anything else, you're going to get a lot of dead pointy hats.

Or a lot of DM's kindly using fiat in order to actually keep them alive.

 

[James Gasik]

Yup that's a problem with 5E imho.

Had a cleric last night cast a clw spell that fully restored a fighter.
Technically you can do tgat in 5E but +1 to hit and 1d6 damage is a lot different than 5E Mook type monsters.

Yeah the monsters got more damage, but the healing spells didn't keep pace. Heck, as much as people gripe about it in 5e, fireball is a lot weaker than it was in AD&D, once you take into account the difference in enemy hit points!

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah the monsters got more damage, but the healing spells didn't keep pace. Heck, as much as people gripe about it in 5e, fireball is a lot weaker than it was in AD&D, once you take into account the difference in enemy hit points!

Fireballs the weakest its ever been possible exception of 4E.

It hasn't really been good since 2E to good in 1E.

 

[DammitVictor]

But that ship has sailed, and when I complain about it, I keep getting told "that's a feature", lol.

I'm not a big advocate for high lethality in D&D, but when people fall down in my games, they stay down. If the healer wants to keep their comrades in the fight, they damned well need to keep them on their feet.

I make it harder to knock PCs down, and I make sure that down doesn't always mean dead, but down 100% means out.

 

[ECMO3]

What I hate is even if you like being a healer, healing spells just aren't efficient and you're better off casting most anything else outside of the occasional level 1 Healing Word to get a fallen guy back up for a round.

But that ship has sailed, and when I complain about it, I keep getting told "that's a feature", lol.

Life Cleric is a good healer, especially if you pick up Goodberry through a feat.

That said none of the 5E Clerics I personally played have been healers and most of them, like you said, cast healing word to bring back a downed ally and not a whole lot more.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't know what to say to that, other than, outside of a not-terribly popular subclass, where are all the Defender Fighters now?

Defender is just something 5e does badly, in part because 5e handles melee badly (or makes it bad, take your choice) and it's hard to conceive of a 'ranged defender,' in part because roles were an edition war talking point, and you could never squeeze a 5e caster into just one role, so having formal roles might have looked bad - heck, arguably, 5e has no roles, just full casters, half-casters, and non-casters.
Ultimately, tho, lack of defendering isn't that significant in 5e, since the traditionally-squishy classes aren't really that squishy, and, like, the odd Thief might be the only PC that could hypothetically benefit from a functional defender in the party.

 

[Zardnaar]

Defender is just something 5e does badly, in part because 5e handles melee badly (or makes it bad, take your choice) and it's hard to conceive of a 'ranged defender,' in part because roles were an edition war talking point, and you could never squeeze a 5e caster into just one role, so having formal roles might have looked bad - heck, arguably, 5e has no roles, just full casters, half-casters, and non-casters.
Ultimately, tho, lack of defendering isn't that significant in 5e, since the traditionally-squishy classes aren't really that squishy, and, like, the odd Thief might be the only PC that could hypothetically benefit from a functional defender in the party.

Ranged Defender could work with explicitly magical abilities. Half of the sharpshooter feat, an aure something like that.

 

[overgeeked]

Ranged Defender could work with explicitly magical abilities. Half of the sharpshooter feat, an aure something like that.

There are lots of ways to defend. A ranged taunt would be enough. No need for magic. A monster wasting its turn chasing after you instead of attacking your allies is just as defender-y as tanking with your face.

 

[James Gasik]

Defender is just something 5e does badly, in part because 5e handles melee badly (or makes it bad, take your choice) and it's hard to conceive of a 'ranged defender,' in part because roles were an edition war talking point, and you could never squeeze a 5e caster into just one role, so having formal roles might have looked bad - heck, arguably, 5e has no roles, just full casters, half-casters, and non-casters.
Ultimately, tho, lack of defendering isn't that significant in 5e, since the traditionally-squishy classes aren't really that squishy, and, like, the odd Thief might be the only PC that could hypothetically benefit from a functional defender in the party.

Sure, but if you made them squishy or needing that protection (which I see a lot of people saying they want in balance discussions), then suddenly "defendering" becomes vital...and it's just not there, at least, at a baseline.

You have to basically spec into it, and I don't think a lot of Fighter players want to.