The Early Verdict (kinda long)

Orryn Emrys

Explorer
I would venture a guess that I'm hardly unique in my quest to determine the future of gaming in my own house given the release of 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons. I've spent the past several months anxiously awaiting this newest iteration of my favorite game, soaking up every bit of trivia about its development that I could and enthusiasticly sharing it with my colleagues at every opportunity. It was, if nothing else, fun to extrapolate what I could about the upcoming system.

So now it's here. And I like it. There are, however, some concerns.

The central focus of D&D, mechanically speaking, has always been combat. The game's roots are firmly entrenched in strategic war games and miniature-based skirmishes loaded with vast sequences of extremely tactile rule systems. In its simplest form, D&D enjoys a very straight-forward system of combat resolution that doesn't require any kind of degree to properly employ, laced with a collection of essential statistics that give the characters and creatures in the game a sort of general form and function which allows them to interact with the combat rules.

During the later years of 1st Edition AD&D, subsystems appeared to support non-combat elements of character development, particularly the nonweapon proficiencies introduced in the Dungeoneer's and Wilderness Survival Guides. Additionally, the elements of the game have always supported other archetypical features of a fantasy tale: magic and miracles, wondrous and dangerous environments, treasures and artifacts, thievery and skullduggery, etcetera, etcetera. The idea of the game gradually moved from a simple invade-the-dungeon, kill-the-monsters and take-their-stuff formula to a much broader sort of simulationist game in which you could easily enjoy any approach to characterization that was feasible in a fantasy world. The 2nd Edition AD&D game capitalized on this idea with a bevy of products intended to provide players with the tools to expand the simple concepts presented in the core books in as many directions as they could come up with.

3rd Edition D&D took this concept to a new level, implementing a "build" system for character design that allowed players the most dynamic construction tools they'd ever had the opportunity to play with, at least in the realm of Dungeons & Dragons. By this time, the RPG market had enjoyed a significant boom, offering players a plethora of options for roleplay in a variety of genres and systems. We flirted with some other games during the 90s, particularly ICE's Hero System and White Wolf's Storyteller games, even Palladium's Rifts... but nothing was ever as lasting as our weekly D&D games. And with the turn of the century, and the release of 3E, it Just. Got. Better.

When 2nd Edition was released back in '88, I avoided it. I'd been running 1E for years, and I had every book... I just didn't see a reason to trade up. When I eventually clicked with a group that played 2E, I gave it a chance. And I realized that my stubbornness had cost me a couple years of enjoyment. So when 3E was announced, I pounced on it, watching the internet for rumors and tidbits and reading the "Countdown..." articles every month in Dragon Magazine.

It had issues. When 4th Edition was announced, they started fingering 3.5's issues unapologetically. And they were right. A number of my current problems with system are items that they elected to address in the construction of 4E. Encounter building, monster customization, tedious combats, and the loss of earlier editions' ability to throw larger clusters of creatures at your heroes and still present a comparable challenge... these and other factors had long since become unsatisfactory for me, though I had more trouble pinpointing them before they were called out to account for themselves. Which isn't to say that they weren't problems before I knew what they looked like... I just worked around them. Just like everyone else, if they found them trying in the least.

So now what? I've only had a single session of 4th Edition. I've read the books... I consider myself a relatively experienced judge of system mechanics, and I can easily recognize the grace and elegance of the new game system, the clever manner in which it sets out to do precisely what it intends to. Characters are balanced, powers are cool and interesting, encounter-building and monster customization is simple and powerfully flexible... I love the skill system, I like the tier-based advancement philosophy, and the half-your-level scaling of attacks, defenses and skills. It's good, and it's gonna be a lot of fun.

But it's a one-trick pony.

It makes everything fun, but it doesn't make everything possible. And I can more clearly see how important that is now for my players and our gaming style. For example, character optimization is key in 4E, so you absolutely cannot construct a sub-optimal character, or a character who lacks prowess in battle. The character roles defined by the new system are a powerful tool, but they're also a straightjacket. Blurring the lines between them too effectively would damage the ability of the system to deliver what it promises, but many players want precisely that kind of blurring in their characters. It isn't to make them more powerful... we all know that only a very few approaches to 3E multiclassing are anywhere near effective enough to significantly increase a character's capabilities, rather than watering them down... just to make them who and what they want them to be. Roleplaying such characters can be a rewarding challenge in a D&D game, and 3.5 continues to make it viable. 4E does not.

And that's really the point. What's possible. My D&D game has always made it possible. We've enjoyed long, rich, memorable campaigns that hinged on characters who have had to forge their own paths to success, not that handed to them by the optimization of the system. We're gonna do some 4E for a while - I think our current campaign is perfect for it, as the group pretty much made combat-capable 3.5 characters that translated fairly easily to the new system - and I know we're gonna enjoy it. But I think that it will wear out its welcome before long. There's only so many games that we're going to want to play to enjoy the challenge of employing our combat-capable PCs as a tactically-effective unit, in games focused primarily on individual combat encounters. For my convoluted political campaigns or games that focus on the social implications of the characters' experiences, I could do it 4E. Sure I could. But I could it better with 3.5.

Now I've got to figure out what I would do to my 3.5 game to take advantage of some of the powerful tools they've implemented. It's tough... they've really intrically tied their new mechanics to the their core design philosphies, so it may only be so possible to do.
 

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Interesting "verdict". ;) Good read.

I do not agree with it being a "one-trick" pony. I see a lot of interesting options to play around with. But I believe that it will also require additional source books to grant more options. (But I am not sure if it was any other way in 3E or Shadowrun, to name a few games I played.)

I wouldn't be surprised if you'd find out that your current campaign will last longer then you'd expect, or that your next campaign will also be 4E.

But only time can tell...
 

hong

WotC's bitch
I don't think char optimisation is that necessary in 4E, or at least not any more necessary or required in any greater degree than previously. You can have a fighter with 18 Str or 16 Str, and it won't make that much difference (a 10 Str fighter would be boned, but that would be the case in every edition).

What 4E really rewards is smart tactical play, whether or not your character builds are finely tuned. This is stuff like stacking bonuses, not getting isolated, knowing when to use encounter and daily powers, etc. This should come with time, as you gain experience with the system.
 

Mallus

Legend
Orryn Emrys said:
We've enjoyed long, rich, memorable campaigns that hinged on characters who have had to forge their own paths to success, not that handed to them by the optimization of the system.
But the system doesn't hand out tactics, right? It only makes suboptimal builds something of a non-issue.

For my convoluted political campaigns or games that focus on the social implications of the characters' experiences, I could do it 4E. Sure I could. But I could it better with 3.5.
In all seriousness, what does 3.5 offer in that regard that 4e doesn't? Games like that have never been the brand's focus, and it's been my experience that successful campaigns run in those modes have always done so on the strength of the the participants brought to the game, not from anything found in the rules (any edition).
 

Celebrim

Legend
Very good post.

I'm having the same problems. I've glanced through the books now, and I fear that not only is it such a one trick pony that it acts as a straight jacket, but that it is such a one trick pony that it greatly reduces replay value.

I look at the monster manual and don't see monsters that are easier to create. I see a very small toolset with a very limited mechanical range. I sat down to convert B2 to 4e because that is a simple module with a strong combat focus where the whole module can be thought of as a series of encounters where you must use your characters as a tactically cohesive units, and was immediately struck by the fact that most everything would have to be minions and that the new mechanics wouldn't be helping increase the interest much. I was actually struck by how much harder it is to make quality novel monsters in the new system. Coming up with new interesting tightly focused little tactical schtiks is hard - alot harder than 3e kitchen sink approach or 1e's freeform simplicity. And I wonder just how much fun beating down 30 hit point goblins and kobolds is going to be after the third or fourth one? The disparity between the 1 hit point minions and needing 4-7 rounds to beat down the non-minions is just jarring.
 

Cadfan

First Post
Your post started out sounding knowledgeable, but then it shot off into nowhere.
Orryn Emrys said:
It makes everything fun, but it doesn't make everything possible. And I can more clearly see how important that is now for my players and our gaming style. For example, character optimization is key in 4E, so you absolutely cannot construct a sub-optimal character, or a character who lacks prowess in battle.
As far as I can tell, when you say that you "cannot" construct a sub optimal character, you are asserting that the system will not let you. This is of course crazy and obviously you do not believe it, as no serious person could.
The character roles defined by the new system are a powerful tool, but they're also a straightjacket. Blurring the lines between them too effectively would damage the ability of the system to deliver what it promises, but many players want precisely that kind of blurring in their characters. It isn't to make them more powerful... we all know that only a very few approaches to 3E multiclassing are anywhere near effective enough to significantly increase a character's capabilities, rather than watering them down... just to make them who and what they want them to be. Roleplaying such characters can be a rewarding challenge in a D&D game, and 3.5 continues to make it viable. 4E does not.
1. The roles are easier to blur than you seem to believe. Many classes even come with pre-blurred roles.
2. The roles are combat roles. It is not clear how they will affect your ability to roleplay.
And that's really the point. What's possible. My D&D game has always made it possible. We've enjoyed long, rich, memorable campaigns that hinged on characters who have had to forge their own paths to success, not that handed to them by the optimization of the system.
This is another comment that you cannot possibly truly believe, because it is crazy. "Handed to them by the optimization of the system?"
There's only so many games that we're going to want to play to enjoy the challenge of employing our combat-capable PCs as a tactically-effective unit, in games focused primarily on individual combat encounters.
That's fair. I've no objection to that.
For my convoluted political campaigns or games that focus on the social implications of the characters' experiences, I could do it 4E. Sure I could. But I could it better with 3.5.
If you say so. For the political campaigns, 3.5 has a larger skill system. If you intend to make a game where Profession: Butler is a genuinely relevant skill, then you'll want mechanics for Profession: Butler. 4e assumes that such a skill is tangential at best.

That being said, the "social implications of the characters' experiences" lines sounds like another comment grounded more in curmudgeon than reason. Last I checked, 3.5 hasn't got mechanics for social implications of the characters' experiences.
 

Ydars

Explorer
OR Cadfan, we could just say to ourselves that "everyone has a right to an opinion, even if we don't agree with it".

The guy obviously DOES believe what he has written, and making fun of his way of expressing it is not really that nice! It is also fairly cowardly, since I doubt you would speak to someone like that if you were in the same room as them.

Honestly, either discuss the OP sensitively or SAY NOTHING!! I for one, have had enough of edition wars to last me a lifetime!

And for the record; I like most of 4E, but I don't much like the 4E mafia that seems to prowl these boards.
 

Orryn Emrys

Explorer
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
I wouldn't be surprised if you'd find out that your current campaign will last longer then you'd expect, or that your next campaign will also be 4E.
To be honest, I look forward to finding out. It's entirely possible that, any early reservations notwithstanding, 4E could quite simply be enjoyable enough to significantly transform my group's expectations. As it is, I fully intend to give it the chance. My current campaign is only barely underway, and I hope to see it last well into the Paragon levels, at the very least. And it certainly isn't the only 4E game we're going to play... my players have plenty of things they want to try out in other side games that we're tentatively planning.
 

Ydars

Explorer
I understand the OPs concerns, and it is annoying that 4E seems to be so much about combat at present.

I can only hope that future expansions/splat books address these problems with rule expansions for those of us that don't want complete hackfest gaming.

The good thing though, is that combat seems alot more streamlined and so, once other rules come out, it may be that this game will be much more playable than 3.5E.

Having said this, I will say again that I will be playing and DMing 3.5E and 4E for years to come as both have something to offer; especially if they can sort out these skill challenges.
 

Wisdom Penalty

First Post
Great post. I empathize with many of your concerns.

I think Hong hit on the difference between 4e and previous versions of D&D (excepting, perhaps, 1e). It's this: 4e is all about optimizing the group, not optimizing the individual. Players need to get into a mindset of taking actions in combat that are most beneficial for the group, and not (necessarily) the "best" action they might take as an individual PC. Combat has become communism, in a way, and this philosophy seems to permeate through the equally-balanced classes and their associated powers.

Gone are the days wherein some classes would become non-viable in mid-high level adventures. Gone are the days wherein casters, or CODzilla, or whatever would take the spotlight encounter after encounter.

That, I think we'd agree, is Good. What remains to be seen is whether these equal-powered classes are different enough from their fellows, and different enough as they advance, to keep players interested in playing them.

Wis
 

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