D&D 5E The D&D rapier: What is it?

[Greg Benage]

I'm rather disappointed that more people aren't answering, "It's a light weapon that does 1d6 piercing damage, and looks however the player wielding it chooses to describe it."

Well, it's not light and doesn't deal 1d6 damage, for starters!

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm rather disappointed that more people aren't answering, "It's a light weapon that does 1d6 piercing damage, and looks however the player wielding it chooses to describe it."

.... because I said, first thing in the tread, that this isn't a thread about "how much damage should a rapier do?". There is a perfectly fine thread started by [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] , with lots of fine posts and arguments about how much damage and what rules should be use etc etc. I even included a link to it. Why do you insist on posting here and not in that thread? Don't you know how much you are hurting [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] 's feelings?!? Sheesh.

Slightly more seriously, I made this thread because I felt that a number of people were "stuck" on the image of a rapier being a whippy, very slender blade that just didn't seem suitable for the rigor of D&D adventuring. I wanted to point out (pun intended) that there was actually a fair amount of variety in how rapier blades were made, and that a subsection of rapiers were therefore quite suitable for more "general use" and not only useful for duels vs unarmored foes.

This kind of stuff matters very little for some, but quite a lot for some others. Some people do see a link between form and function, after all.

 

[iamntbatman]

I'm actually curious as to what other weapons people have come up with to fit in that damage slot. A typical long, thin basket-hilted rapier does indeed seem like a silly weapon for an adventurer to carry around to fight trolls with (which is why my bard, who will likely never use it, carries just such a weapon). When classes who would actually use such a weapon on the regular need a rapier, I like to imagine them more like the Gustav Vasa sword in the OP.

I'd also have no problem using the rapier stats with the piercing damage swapped for slashing and calling it a sabre or elven blade or something to that effect.

But what about a 1d8, one-handed piercing weapon (I think we're being a bit limited in our thinking that a rapier stand-in has to necessarily be some other sort of sword) that could benefit as much from precise use as it could from brute strength? I'm not averse to the idea of inventing weaponry, either; as has been pointed out the reality of a D&D world is far different from real Earth history. It's not difficult for me to imagine a weapon that would work better for monster-slaying adventurers than strictly man-on-man fighting. What about something like a short-handled yari (something maybe assegai length?) with a crossguard low enough on the handle to prevent it from working as a versatile weapon? Such a weapon would not be at all suitable for throwing, could be rammed through armor with brute force by STR-based characters or finessed through armor gaps by DEX characters, most definitely would do piercing damage rather than slashing, would definitely be a martial weapon requiring special training unlike a basic spear, and would be a much sturdier weapon than a flimsy rapier for adventuring purposes. What other weapon ideas could people come up with for something that uses the PHB rapier stats for something that fits more in a D&D adventuring world?

 

[happyhermit]

I usually picture (and describe to players) something along the lines of the Vasa "rapier" in the OP, or what is often called a side sword. The terminology for this stuff really is pretty bad, but yeah, relatively narrow, pointy blade with a complex guard, but heftier than a "small sword" is my default.

 

[Coroc]

[MENTION=6907623]iamntbatman[/MENTION] The long slender blade of the typical 16th century rapier (Time of predominant use is about 1520 to 1600) is much more sturdy than most of the people here seem to imagine. Used as a backup sidearm on battlefield you had oponents wielding halberds or greatswords and it would not break or bend by occasionally parrying one of these.

As some including me posted already ist bladelength is about 1m20 -1m30 (3-3 1/2 ft) which is longer than e.g. a katana so it had incredible good reach, and it was by no means light (1-1,5 kg or 2-3 Pound) which is close the weight of a long sword.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

But what about a 1d8, one-handed piercing weapon

Our group sort of has that in the long sword: We rule that weapons can deal damage types that fit with their design. So most swords can deal Piercing or Slashing, most Halberds and warhammers have a spike on the other side allowing piercing damage etc.

(I think we're being a bit limited in our thinking that a rapier stand-in has to necessarily be some other sort of sword) that could benefit as much from precise use as it could from brute strength?

Most swords have a point of balance close to the hand, which makes them feel easier to use than other weapons. This fits the fiction of a D&D Finesse weapon better. Its also easier to imagine athleticism and force being irrelevant for a film rapier, which would simply flex rather than transmitting the power of a thrust.

I'm not averse to the idea of inventing weaponry, either; as has been pointed out the reality of a D&D world is far different from real Earth history. It's not difficult for me to imagine a weapon that would work better for monster-slaying adventurers than strictly man-on-man fighting. What about something like a short-handled yari (something maybe assegai length?) with a crossguard low enough on the handle to prevent it from working as a versatile weapon? Such a weapon would not be at all suitable for throwing, could be rammed through armor with brute force by STR-based characters or finessed through armor gaps by DEX characters, most definitely would do piercing damage rather than slashing, would definitely be a martial weapon requiring special training unlike a basic spear, and would be a much sturdier weapon than a flimsy rapier for adventuring purposes.

Sounds like it would have too much mass at the end and would thus require a certain amount of muscle power to maneuver it quickly and with control. You really need something that feels as balanced and lively as a rapier to retain that feel.
As a quick 'reality' check, think of something that would be bigger than a short sword, and that would be just as deadly in the hands of Bilbo Baggins as Bruce Lee. That is the D&D rapier.

What other weapon ideas could people come up with for something that uses the PHB rapier stats for something that fits more in a D&D adventuring world?

Its pretty tricky to think of something that isn't already covered by another weapon.
You could do a certain amount with the addition of low-level magic: maybe some form of spring-loaded blade in a short pole, or a weapon made of magically low-weight material. Or maybe a slightly animated weapon that follows its wielder's movements and provides the motion and force without requiring effort from the wielder.

 

[Kalshane]

The thing is you can still use Strength with finesse weapons, so there's no real need for a "brute force piercing sword".

 

[iamntbatman]

Right, but using strength to use a weapon implies brute force. The reason a short sword or dagger is finesse is because a dexterous person could use such a weapon to aim for gaps in armor and weak points with care, while a strong person could just ram it through your armor. I mean, we've got to keep in mind that in a world where a strength of ten represents average, a strength of 20 is a giant hulking person. So if we're going by that understanding, a strong person should be able to use a rapier (a finesse weapon) with equal deadliness as a nimble person. It ought to be a sturdy enough weapon to pierce at least weaker spots in armor by the force of a strong hand. Actually the only weapon in the PHB that's listed as finesse that I can't really imagine working in such a way is the whip, which requires some level of dexterous technique to work as a weapon at all and brute force wouldn't really help you.

 

[jasper]

just some books for you.

Oakeshott, Ewart books and articles.
A Knight and his Armour, A Knight in Battle, A Knight and his Castle, A Knight and his Castle, A Knight and his Horse , A Knight and his Weapons, Dark Age Warrior*, The Archaeology of Weapons , The Sword in the Age of Chivalry . Journal of the Arms and Armour Society of London, A Royal Sword in Westminster Abbey in The Connoisseur Magazine 1951*. The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England *, Fighting Men (with Henry Treece)*, The Blindfold Game*, Sound of Battle (with Leonard Clark)*, European Weapons and Armour, Records of the Medieval Sword*, Sword in Hand*, Sword in the Viking Age* (not yet published). http://www.oakeshott.org/

Burton Richard Francis The book of the Sword *
Alfred Hutton Old sword play Techniques of the Great Masters

Hans Talhoffer Fechtbuch

 

[Guest 6801328]

Well, it's not light and doesn't deal 1d6 damage, for starters!

Oh, derp....yeah I had just been reading posts talking about what short swords are when I wrote that.