Pathfinder 2E Taking20 -"I'm Quitting Pathfinder 2e Because of This Issue"

[Minigiant]

Here's my reading into what I see in the video. And correct me if I'm wrong.
Basically players get pushed into an optimal tactic by the way the game builds characters. And even if they trow in a suboptimal tactic in their sometimes, they don't do it enough. Because the game guides and builds you into an optimal tactic so easily, you feel obligated to use it and the GM feels obligated to let you use it.

Don't know if that's true or not. Haven't played enough PF2e to say yes or no.

 

[Retreater]

@kenada and @Justice and Rule I'm curious about Foundry VTT and PF2 (since I was trying to run it on Roll20 and having a pretty bad time). Can either of you speak to the Import PDF functionality and how it handles character creation?

 

[Justice and Rule]

@kenada and @Justice and Rule I'm curious about Foundry VTT and PF2 (since I was trying to run it on Roll20 and having a pretty bad time). Can either of you speak to the Import PDF functionality and how it handles character creation?

Oooh, I wish I knew. I don't normally use APs unless I'm asked to. That's what the Import from PDF thing is, right? Or am I mistaken?

I do use the Pathbuilder import function, which is worth the 5 bucks: basically you go to the "Export to Foundry" button, get your code number, and after you create a blank character in Foundry you can just go to the import button and type it in and it's all done.

 

[kenada]

@kenada and @Justice and Rule I'm curious about Foundry VTT and PF2 (since I was trying to run it on Roll20 and having a pretty bad time). Can either of you speak to the Import PDF functionality and how it handles character creation?

I run homebrew content, so I can’t speak to the import PDF stuff. It purportedly works well, but I don’t have any way to test it (since I don’t own any official adventure PDFs). The system comes with all of the SRD content out of the box, so all the monsters and items are already there whether you import the PDF or not.

The character creator is similar to the roll20 one except that drag and drop actually works, and the compendium is not useless garbage. Building a character is mostly just dragging and dropping the correct feats and features out of the compendium onto the character sheet. When you add a feat with an action, it’ll automatically set up an action on the appropriate tab.

In play, a lot of stuff is automated or more easily managed. Attacks include buttons you can click to apply damage. Spells automatically heighten and include buttons for making saving throws in addition to applying damage. Applying condition icons will automatically set the proper conditions including any conditions that are part of another condition (e.g., setting someone as prone will also set them flat-footed).

There’s some clunk related to modifiers. There’s not currently a way to pop up and apply them on the fly. It makes managing spells like bless annoying. There’s an advanced feature called “rules” that let you add elements to a sheet, but you can accidentally break a character if you’re not careful. It also supports macros, which are incredibly flexible, but they’re all Javascript-based, so if no one is technically inclined, then they’ll be tough to use. The PF2 system does include a few handy ones out of the box (like Raise a Shield).

 

[kenada]

Oooh, I wish I knew. I don't normally use APs unless I'm asked to. That's what the Import from PDF thing is, right? Or am I mistaken?

That’s right. You can import an official PDF, and it’ll create the maps and set up the notes.

I do use the Pathbuilder import function, which is worth the 5 bucks: basically you go to the "Export to Foundry" button, get your code number, and after you create a blank character in Foundry you can just go to the import button and type it in and it's all done.

There’s a Hero Lab Online importer now too. If it could round-trip, that would be super cool. However, HLO’s support for homebrew is brutally painful, so maybe not for us. It’s amazing how far they regressed from Hero Lab classic, which had incredible support for homebrew.

 

[kenada]

Here's my reading into what I see in the video. And correct me if I'm wrong.
Basically players get pushed into an optimal tactic by the way the game builds characters. And even if they trow in a suboptimal tactic in their sometimes, they don't do it enough. Because the game guides and builds you into an optimal tactic so easily, you feel obligated to use it and the GM feels obligated to let you use it.

Don't know if that's true or not. Haven't played enough PF2e to say yes or no.

It’s a mindset thing. Group tactics are more important than individual optimization. If you work together, you can stack up a bunch of buffs and debuffs that no one individually could do no matter how well-optimized. If you’re creative in encounter mode, you can also create an advantage for yourself. Nothing says you have to just walk into every fight like a video game and beat up the dudes.

PF2 is a game where you can have an amazing out-of-combat healer barbarian and a draconic sorcerer who cuts up monsters with her flaming claws. If you want to do some weird combo, you’re probably going to be okay. The only thing that doesn’t work is intentionally deoptimizing your character. We had an alchemist who took no armor, having an AC at 13 at 1st level. He got multi-critted by a 3rd level gray ooze. If you don’t do that, you’ll be fine even if you’re not the very best like no one ever was.

 

[Celtavian]

PF2 isn't as fun as PF1 was, but the balance is nice and makes it easy to run. I like PF2 better than 5E, but not as much as PF1. But I will keep playing PF2 because it's so easy on me as a DM. I do understand as a player not having as much fun given you can't do as much as a PF2 character as you could as a PF1 character. PF2 could use some more work on the core RBs. Certain systems and options need some balancing work, specifically summoning, crafting, and wizard class feats. They either aren't effective, overly complicated, and/or boring.

 

[Ace]

Disclaimer. I've never played PF2, its too detailed for my D&D needs.

I can see his point. If no one much is going to use the rules, why include them?

Personally I'd rather have to deal with the illusion of choice than the tyranny of choice, which so to say "repeat a few optimum moves" vs "way too many choices" and while I'm speaking from GURPS experience here , most of the time it still comes down to a few favorite moves anyway.

Yes in GURPS I can target a dozen different parts of the body target jointsm , make cuts, thrusts ,lunges, grapple and do twenty other things, odds are I am only going to do a couple anyway and once in a long while switch it up. Its not worth the overhead.

So GURPS being modular I just don't use martial arts or technical grappling (the D&D version being Dungeon Grappling by the same author)

D&D doesn't feel like you can do that nor does Pathfinder AFAIK

Now in D&D while there are a lot of spells and a decent number of combat maneuvers I mostly see a few basic ones used anyway.

I think this is because not everyone has access to the other books and frankly because a lot of gamers lack time or interest in learning the rules in the first place.

In all the 3X to Pathfinder 1 I played and ran I saw only one grapple used by a specialist and even he went back to beat them up. Same with spells , a handful get used all the time, the others ignored

D&D wise and yes though I can't be sure in PF2 I think a lot of people like doing builds and dreaming about what cool things they'll do with them but rarely get high enough level to get much use of them as the game stops or they get bored or whatever.

In actual play people might be well suited to a lower level cap and a small range of classes that they actually played. IMO only.

 

[CapnZapp]

I’ll respond here with a 45 minute video in due course!

Do you have a transcript?

 

[CapnZapp]

While I think it's healthy to question the design decisions Paizo made for PF2, I can't really say these complaints target the real problems of the game.

Yes, combat is hard. No, you can't win during the charbuild stage. Sure, offering over 2000 feats is ridonculous.

But combats are fun and challenging and doesn't take forever.

There are other bigger beefs to be had. Nearly everything except combat is plagued by having way too much rules that end up making very little difference.