D&D General Surprise, Initiative and What will you do?

[mellored]

There's the scout sent ahead Surprise which really needs the "surprise round" (or 2014 surprised not-a-condition) in order for "I get the guard before they can shout alarm" to work.

No it doesn't.
You just have to take the guard out in 1 turn instead of 2.

You get 3 seconds, not 9.

not a guarantee.

Good. Not all ambushes should work all the time.

Assuming equal intuitive, advantage and disadvantage, you will go first 84.92% of the time.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Probably surprise is a free round. Games already easy enough for the players.

 

[Oofta]

I'm going to play by the rules for a while and then decide. Might go back to the 2014 version, but I don't particularly have an issue with the new version. Ask again in a few months.

 

[Stormonu]

Granted, I'm not planning to use the 2024 rules, but I'd still use the old surprise rules. Ambushers get a free round of actions before the other side can act. Still, you have to catch the other side by surprise first.

 

[pukunui]

I am OK with regular initiative once a combat starts (though I don't like it either), but not before....which IMO, surprise is before.....

But that's not even how it worked in 2014 5e. You still roll initiative as usual, it's just that anyone who is surprised doesn't get to do anything on their turn (and can't take a reaction before their turn) during the first round.


I know lots of people (including my DM) still runs it like in 3e where there was an actual surprise round before initiative is rolled, but that's not RAW 5e.

 

[mAcular]

Is there a mechanic to determine IF you are surprised? Like making a Wisdom save or something.

 

[pukunui]

Is there a mechanic to determine IF you are surprised? Like making a Wisdom save or something.

I suspect surprise is one of the mechanics were the DM-side (e.g. How to determine if someone is surprised or not) has been moved to the DMG, because all it says in the PHB is:

Surprise​

If a creature is caught unawares by the start of combat, that creature is surprised, which causes it to have Disadvantage on its Initiative roll. See also chapter 1 (“Combat”).

Initiative​

Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

 

[mellored]

Is there a mechanic to determine IF you are surprised? Like making a Wisdom save or something.

If you are hidden (invisible) you get advantage on initiative.

Which includes if you're a rogue and the noisy paladin just failed a stealth check. So it's not all or nothing like before.

As to determine of someone gets disadvantage, that's up to the DM. But IMO if the whole party succeed on the stealth that would count.

 

[Quickleaf]

No it doesn't.
You just have to take the guard out in 1 turn instead of 2.

You get 3 seconds, not 9.

Oh, I wasn't referring to the damage vs hit points maths, I was referring to the (rather vague) rules on yelling to alert others.

While the rules have been silent on exactly what surprise means insofar as raising an alarm "Lookout! We're under attack!"...the interpretation my last 5e table came to was that the general rule (i.e. a character can briefly speak and interact with an object or feature during their move or action for free) only applies on a creature's turn.. but that during regular initiative (no surprise) talking out of turn to shout stuff was OK... but not during surprise.

So in the 2024 rules, the ambusher might lose initiative (despite the advantage) and then the surprised creature yells "Lookout!" and the potential for a "send the scout ahead to gank the guard" scene hinges first and foremost on that initiative roll.

Whereas at least in 2014 rules, the ambusher might lose initiative (allowing the surprised creature to use reactions), but the "free round" hinges the "send the scout ahead to gank the guard" scene on attack/damage rolls.

I think that's a problematic change for that scenario. But YMMV.

 

[mellored]

the interpretation my last 5e table came to was that the general rule (i.e. a character can briefly speak and interact with an object or feature during their move or action for free) only applies on a creature's turn.. but that during regular initiative (no surprise) talking out of turn to shout stuff was OK... but not during surprise.

Nothing about being 2014 surprised prevents you from shouting.

But I don't see why you couldn't roll that houserule forward to the new rolls.

Surprised: disadvantage on initiative, and can't speak until the start of your turn.