Surprise and Combat Reflexes

[Madriver]

Following are two partial descriptions. First, a sentence from Combat Reflexes:

You may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Second, some information from the text on surprise rounds:

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle do not get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are still flat-footed because they have not acted yet. Because of this, they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

The first sentence let's you know that in the surprise round only the surprising creatures get an action...unlike a normal round where all creatures get an action. Since an AoO is not an action, but rather a reaction to an opponent, it seems that a person with combat reflexes would be able to take AoO's during a surprise round if they are called for (reach weapons, creatures with reach, sunder, grapple, disarm, etc.).

Is this correct? If it is correct, is it overpowered?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is this correct?

Yup.

If it is correct, is it overpowered?

I've never found it to be so. It generally startles people when it occurs, but that's not a bad thing

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Overpowered? It is a good effect but a passive one -- it depends on an action on the part of your opponent to exploit the feat. A feat that can be trivially avoided by a modest change in tactics isn't likely to be overpowered.

Really it is mostly a intimidation effect. Throw in a reach weapon and it buys a daunting footprint even during the surprise round.

CR is a very, very good feat for smaller parties where it will be difficult to protect spellcasters during an ambush. Add in a reach weapon that can trip, and trip related feats, and you will really have fun.

 

[Madriver]

CR is a very, very good feat for smaller parties where it will be difficult to protect spellcasters during an ambush. Add in a reach weapon that can trip, and trip related feats, and you will really have fun.

My thoughts as well, but my DM made a snap decision to disallow AoO's on surprise rounds because he thought it was too powerful, especially since I was running a reach weapon fighter (which, I think , is an excellent situation to take Combat Reflexes). He was insistent (along with another part-time DM, we all rotate DM-ing) that it would be fixed in 3.5, and I was wondering what the consensus seemed to be.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Darklone]

He's nerving Combat Reflexes because it does what it does?

Damn. Get your fighter buddies to bullrush the enemies along your line of comrades with reach weapons and Combat Reflexes.

 

[RedSwan78]

My thoughts as well, but my DM made a snap decision to disallow AoO's on surprise rounds because he thought it was too powerful, especially since I was running a reach weapon fighter (which, I think , is an excellent situation to take Combat Reflexes). He was insistent (along with another part-time DM, we all rotate DM-ing) that it would be fixed in 3.5, and I was wondering what the consensus seemed to be.

Thanks for the replies.

That it would be "fixed"..? Uhm, there's NOTHING broken with it! Combat Reflexes is.. well, damn, just look at the name.. Combat.. REFLEXES.. seems to me that they have taken the time to train themselves to be able to react really well in combat. Compare this a little with martial arts training.. HEY, you're moving into action even before you know it because it's just INSTINCT.

What does your DM think of that? Seriously though, it's NOT an overpowered feat, just a really cool one. It's limited in it's use. It's not like you're using it EVERY attack. Only when you might be able to make an AoO you can use it.

I think your DM might just be mad because you are using a fighter with a reach weapon. That's why reach weapons are soo good! He's basically saying "wow, you can do something cool. I don't like that, so you can't do it. I want my monsters to win". Which is wrong because it isn't supposed to be "his team vs. your team".

Bottom line- I think your DM is being unfair. Combat Reflexes is *not* overpowered and the making an AoO in a surprised round is just what the feat DOES. It doesn't come up that much anyways.

 

[Wippit Guud]

I love giving this to people with no dex bonus... no one expects an ogre to get an AoO on a surprise round

 

[gfunk]

Bottom line- I think your DM is being unfair. Combat Reflexes is *not* overpowered and the making an AoO in a surprised round is just what the feat DOES. It doesn't come up that much anyways.

Your DM should try DMing my campaign. I have a Half-Ogre Fighter/Barbarian with Combat Reflex.

. . . and a Huge Spiked chain with 15' reach

. . . and the Large and in Charge feat (S&F)

. . . and a 14 Dex.

= Bad news for the first two enemies that charge in.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

To be perfectly blunt...the one thing worse than a whining player is a whining DM.

The real problem is he is having difficulty dealing with reach. CR just ruined his fun when he finally thought he found a "clever" way around your annoying reach weapon.

I can tell you from first hand experience that PCs need to learn to deal with reach or suffer horribly. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

What should an NPC (or PC) do against reach AoOs? A few suggestions:
(1) Throw a spear or handaxe, etc., or other ranged attacks.
(2) Carry a reach weapon.
(3) Ready an action and wait for you to close.
(4) Take Mobility and suck it up like a man.
(5) Take Tumble and ignore it.
(6) Take Spring Attack and ignore it.
(7) Close to 5' and grapple. (If you have already used an AoO on that target this round, even spiked chain won't help you.)
(8) Use fog effects or similar magic.
(9) Summon monsters next to you.

 

[RedSwan78]

Good suggestions Ridley's Cohort, but there's one you missed,

Fight Defensively while using the maxium amount of Expertise that you can.

That's a good thing for Fighters, because you can't tumble in armor that has reduced your speed.

Maybe not the *best* option, but it sure is *another* option