D&D 5E Stealth, Spot, and Listen

[kerleth]

So I've seen a couple of posts mention some confusion with the spot and listen skills. The most common complaint is "Do I make a spot and listen check and see if either one beats their sneak?" or vice versa. I just reread the rules, and this is my take.

There are no spot or listen checks. There are also no knowledge checks, climb checks, or sneak checks.

According to the rules, when you are trying to notice a hidden creature you make a wisdom check opposed by their dexterity check.

According to the rules a skill grants a bonus to any ability check to which it may apply. So if you are trying to detect a hidden creature and you could possibly see him (as opposed to him being on the other side of a wall, for example) then you get to add your spot bonus. If you could possibly hear them, then add listen. That simple.

The only real confusion is if you could add the bonus from both spot and listen if you had both. Let's rephrase the question. You come across a religous artifact with mystical powers belonging to a dark cult. Could you add the bonus from your forbidden lore, arcane lore, and religous lore? (I liked that naming scheme better than Knowledge:Arcane, as an aside). Probably not. While I agree that they should clarify that you can't stack multiple skill bonuses, that is not an issue exclusive to sneak, spot, and listen. It also takes only about one sentence to clear up, so no biggie.

In short, I think the confusion comes not from the new rules system, but from our old habits. Many of us (myself included) are used to thinking of things in terms of skill checks, rather than ability checks with bonuses. As soon as you look at the rules as written, they make perfect sense.

 

[Obryn]

Personally, I'd rather they just collapsed the skills together and saved any possible confusion.

-O

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I would be happy to see Spot and Listen become Awareness, leaving Search as a separate, more methodical skill. I see your point though, provided you declare that only one skill can be applied to any ability check, it doesn't matter that much.

 

[kerleth]

I think they may have changed them for these reasons.

1) To see peoples thoughts on the change. It is a playTEST, after all.
2) Some people complained that the previous unified skill was "a god skill" I personally don't agree with this.
3) So it would be a touch easier to model races/characters with a keen eye or ear but not the other. Such do exist in the fiction. (Though these could certainly be called out on an individual racial basis without needing a seperate skill).

Just guesses, though.

 

[ren1999]

It plays better as a combined skill. Spot and listen together. I would even say that combining Search with those two skills would make the skill more attractive.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

3) So it would be a touch easier to model races/characters with a keen eye or ear but not the other. Such do exist in the fiction. (Though these could certainly be called out on an individual racial basis without needing a separate skill).

I would prefer that racial benefits for keen eye/keen ear/keen smell be reflected by a 'sense radius' rather than a bonus to the skill check.

As an example, low light vision {defined as the radius beyond a light sources 'bright' radius that the character can see things clearly}
Human, range 10'
Elf, range 20'
Dwarf, range 30'
Hobbit, range 40'

Things like the dwarven knack for finding hidden doors in stonework would be a bonus to the check, but only when looking for that specific thing.

And yes, I think there should be a clearly defined 'range' for sounds and smells. Something like:
very quiet or whisper: 5'
quiet or murmur: 10'
soft spoken: 20'
normal voice: 30'
strident: 40'
Drill Sergeant: 50'

Then keen hearing adds to that distance that you can clearly hear from.

Ditto for smells, going from faint smell to overpoweringly pungent.


[/sidetrack]

OP.. very well described. Thank you

 

[Jester David]

The problem with single skills is that sometimes you should be only using one sense and not the others.

Should blindness imposes the same penalties to Perception/Alertness as deafness? You get oddities such as the blinded creature being unable to hear the iron golem. Or the invisible fighter in full plate and a low Dex still being undetectable. Or creatures in the dark being able to shout without penalty as there's no light.

 

[Obryn]

The problem with single skills is that sometimes you should be only using one sense and not the others.

Should blindness imposes the same penalties to Perception/Alertness as deafness? You get oddities such as the blinded creature being unable to hear the iron golem. Or the invisible fighter in full plate and a low Dex still being undetectable. Or creatures in the dark being able to shout without penalty as there's no light.

I don't think that follows at all. "Deaf: You fail perception checks that involve hearing." "Blinded: You fail perception checks that involve sight."

-O

 

[Li Shenron]

In short, I think the confusion comes not from the new rules system, but from our old habits. Many of us (myself included) are used to thinking of things in terms of skill checks, rather than ability checks with bonuses. As soon as you look at the rules as written, they make perfect sense.

I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately I think that those bad habits will win in the end, because we have already exhibited the bad habit (sic!) of skimming through the rules without reading them carefully, then storm the internet to post our deeply felt but poorly thought-out criticisms.

I sincerely hope that WotC takes a major effort in communicating these gaming concepts, or otherwise good ideas (skills are bonuses to a lot of things you can already do) will just fly above our heads.

I also agree that they shouldn't stack. If you're good at both Listen and Spot (i.e. you have the +3 training bonus representing additional training), then in the philosophy of 5e bounded accuracy your benefit is that you'll apply that +3 more often than someone who has only either Spot or Listen but not both.

 

[mlund]

The real problem is assuming that because sometimes listening or seeing might appy separately that you need separate skills for each. You can have, say, a racial bonus for keen ears exist right alongside a skill training in perception or awareness. If you are actually being trained to look for subtle clues in your environment then you're being trained to use all your senses. It makes no sense to have separate training for using your eyes (spot), ears (listen), or hands (search).

I could see a split between social, natural, and supernatural perception skills - something like: awareness vs. perception (to borrow from Legend of the Five Rings) vs. sixth sense (to lift from Magnamund / Lone Wolf).

But spot, listen, and search? Not a chance when it comes to background skills. Natural senses? Sure! I mean Dwarves have stone sense - it doesn't get more niche than that!

- Marty Lund