D&D (2024) Spirt Guardians

[mellored]

I disagree. I’m with @Horwath. 1/round. I might make it so all such emanation-type spells that can potentially deal damage multiple times are just 1/round.

Spellcasters could still do with a bit of a nerf after all.

If it's 1/round, then you lose the teamwork.

Also it would be a pain to track.

 

[SteveC]

As we discuss Spirit Guardians and similar spells, I have to wonder how much of this is operating as intended. The only way you can have an issue between damage once per Turn and once per Round is shenanigans with forced movement or picking up and grabbing a character. That's kind of a weird situation, isn't it? I wonder if this was an intended "feature" involving system mastery. I'm not sure what other purpose the differentiation would have.

 

[mellored]

As we discuss Spirit Guardians and similar spells, I have to wonder how much of this is operating as intended. The only way you can have an issue between damage once per Turn and once per Round is shenanigans with forced movement or picking up and grabbing a character. That's kind of a weird situation, isn't it? I wonder if this was an intended "feature" involving system mastery. I'm not sure what other purpose the differentiation would have.

It's definitely a feature to push enemies into the zones.

Now dragging the cleric might of been an oversight.

 

[pukunui]

If it's 1/round, then you lose the teamwork.

I’m OK with that. There are plenty of other ways for the PCs to work together.

I don’t think anything will be lost in actual play. In my experience, players aren’t going to want to “waste” their turn pushing an enemy when they could just attack that enemy themselves.

Also it would be a pain to track.

Not any more so than it already is!

 

[mellored]

In my experience, players aren’t going to want to “waste” their turn pushing an enemy when they could just attack that enemy themselves.

Str Martials and some Monks can now attack and push.
The trade off is topple.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I’m OK with that. There are plenty of other ways for the PCs to work together.

I don’t think anything will be lost in actual play. In my experience, players aren’t going to want to “waste” their turn pushing an enemy when they could just attack that enemy themselves.


Not any more so than it already is!

I think we need something like once on your turn and once between the end of your turn and your turn.

Or just using up your reaction.

 

[Mistwell]

I disagree. I’m with @Horwath. 1/round. I might make it so all such emanation-type spells that can potentially deal damage multiple times are just 1/round.

Spellcasters could still do with a bit of a nerf after all.

This is actually a buff to melee types, not a buff to the spellcaster. It's them using their abilities to move an emanation around the room. Some melee types were given abilities specifically for this kind of thing, like the monk's new ability to move for free with another PC.

 

[Oofta]

*grappling someone is not carrying them.

Colloquially we might refer to moving around a grappled creature as carrying them but by the rules those are 2 different things.

Why wouldn't the carry rules apply? At the very least you are dragging them (which as stated drops speed to 5). Just because the rules don't explicitly state it, you are still moving the mass of something else other than your PC which is covered by carrying capacity. In addition, grapple is an attack, so the person dragging the PC around pays a penalty.

That's how I intend to rule anyway. I don't see this as anything but a hypothetical rule in all but the most extreme cases.

 

[Xetheral]

As I mentioned in the thread that spawned this one, I dislike the 2024 Spirit Guardians changes because the upper bound on the spell's utility is now dependent on what your group considers creative versus what your group considers ridiculous. Personally I find navigating that dynamic less fun than the straight tactical challenge provided by the 2014 version of the spell.

I would also note that in terms of maximizing effectiveness of the spell, grappling and dragging is probably surpassed by having a small-sized Cleric ride shotgun on a mount controlled in sequence by each of the other PCs on their turns. (Alternatively, the mount could pull a vehicle the Cleric is on rather than the mount carrying two creatures.) Every time one of the PCs takes control of the mount its initiative changes to the match theirs, letting the mount move and Dash repeatedly. And since mounting/dismounting requires movement rather than an action, the other PCs still get to take their actions (although they'll provoke opportunity attacks on themselves or the mount if they want to get close enough to make melee attacks) on top of the Spirit Guardians damage.

So, without hard-to-set-up Legendary or Lair Actions providing off-turn movement, the maximum number of turns Spirit Guardians activates each round may be once on the Cleric's turn, once on the Cleric's readied action on an enemy's turn (although they'll only get half their movement on the readied action since they want to end up back on the mount), once on each of the other PC's turns as they control the mount, once on each of the PC's allies' (or summoned creatures') turns if they're able to ride a mount, and then individually on any enemy who ends their turn in the emanation.

And there's no need for your allies to build around this tactic. But if they do, it goes from lots of damage to ludicrous. For example, the 2024 Animate Objects spell explicitly counts the animated objects as creatures that each have their own turn. So, as long the objects have the right "anatomy" to ride (or grapple) Spirit Guardians can trigger on each Bard or Sorcerer or Wizard's turn and again on each of their animated objects' turn. A 17th level party of 3 Wizards or Sorcerers or Bards and 1 Cleric can trigger Spirit Guardians on 23 turns each round for 10 rounds using one 3rd and three 5th level slots.

 

[mellored]

Or just using up your reaction.

I could get behind that.

At the end of your turn, or as a reaction when a creature enters the zone.

Maybe...