D&D 5E Spells you house rule?

[Cadence]

If the barbarian isn't actively searching, why isn't it a passive check?

 

[Mannahnin]

why is the barbarian looking if there is no reason to look? something triggered the barbarian to look (or somtehing suprised tha barbarian) if there is no suprise the same thing triggers the cleric

In the example given (which, TBF, would usually be resolved using Passive Perception), nothing triggered the Barbarian or the Cleric. They're just moving down the hall. In the fiction, we're figuring out whether any of them happened to spot the upcoming ambush; hear a small noise or something. The Cleric can't pray for success in advance on it because he's not aware of it until it's already happened.

Similarly, the Cleric can't be everywhere and see everything at once. On many occasions, when another PC goes to attempt some action, the Cleric's attention may be otherwise engaged.

I'm happy to allow Guidance if the Cleric reasonably is aware that "something chancy is about to be attempted" and has a moment to pray for success before the actual attempt is made. I am sensitive to what Mister_Fish perceives as the "DM may I" nature of this, though. I try to be careful to be on the same page with my players and err a little bit on the side of letting them have it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In the example given (which, TBF, would usually be resolved using Passive Perception), nothing triggered the Barbarian or the Cleric.

but if nothing triggered it, and as you said it should be passive, then I don't understand the issue/

They're just moving down the hall. In the fiction, we're figuring out whether any of them happened to spot the upcoming ambush;

in an ambush (again) there is no need to argue if the cleric can or can not... if he is suprised, he can take no actions.

hear a small noise or something. The Cleric can't pray for success in advance on it because he's not aware of it until it's already happened.

again this is the use of the suprise rule... no house rule no argument just "Sorry this is a suprise"

Similarly, the Cleric can't be everywhere and see everything at once. On many occasions, when another PC goes to attempt some action, the Cleric's attention may be otherwise engaged.

and again I covered that "are they suprised or not able to see or interact with the other player"

I'm happy to allow Guidance if the Cleric reasonably is aware that "something chancy is about to be attempted" and has a moment to pray for success before the actual attempt is made.

then I don't understand what you are argueing

 

[Mannahnin]

Surprised is a quasi-condition that only applies in combat, right? We're talking about non-combat situations.

then I don't understand what you are argueing

Picture the fiction. Imagine the situation.

Ask yourself, "At the point when the DM calls for a check, is the Cleric already aware that their friend is about to do something which he's not guaranteed to succeed at, in arm's reach, with time to pray for success first?"

In at least SOME game situations, a Cleric's player reflexively calls out "Guidance!" whenever they hear a check being called for. This can create the impression that the Cleric is in some quantum superposition, constantly watching over the shoulders of every single party member simultaneously.

 

[Flamestrike]

why is the barbarian looking if there is no reason to look? something triggered the barbarian to look (or somtehing suprised tha barbarian) if there is no suprise the same thing triggers the cleric

What? They're all looking forward as they advance down the hallway. Looking around, alert for danger.

The DM determines that there is something they might notice, and asks for a Perception check as they reach the 30' mark.

The Cleric cant then ask to give Guidance, because he doesnt know there is anything there to notice (and thus cant know that there is a reason to help anyone) and the check has already been asked for.

Now, if the Cleric suspected there might be something before entering the hallway, he could always declare he will cast it pre-emptively on himself (or someone else) at the start of the hallway, and before they advance down it (and the even that triggers the perception check) of course.

why is he looking again?

Why are you looking anywhere at any time?

And why isnt the Cleric casting guidance on you then?

why don't you know, are you suprised and/or not paying attention?

either A) it is a suprise (no actions, no guidence) or B) it is a situation where the PCs are not suprised and can take actions.

No, it's not.

1st) any DM telling a player "not a chance in hell" instead of being an adult and explaining is someone I don't want to deal with at work where I am paid to deal with mean stupid people...let alone at a game with supposed friend

No, I'll explain why. I already have in this thread.

Explanation:

1) Your PC must have a plausible, in game reason, to suspect there is a task at hand, or a challenge of skill, where the result is in doubt, and important enough to go out of your way to assist in (you need to be able to explain to me what prompted your PC to assist in the task, and how you were aware there was a task that was being performed) and

2) Your PC must cast guidance before that moment passes, and not after the DM asks for the check to determine success or failure of what occurred in that moment. No retconning Guidance after the DM calls for the check.

Same deal with the Help action.

 

[Flamestrike]

@GMforPowergamers

Your PCs are sitting at a table in a tavern chatting. All but one (the Fighter) has their back to the Bar, and blocked by a wall. You determine that the Bartender - who is also secretly a Zentarim spy (and only visible to the Fighter) secretly pulls a lever, and sneakily enters a secret door to the basement. The Fighter is the only person possibly able to see this happen.

You call for a Perception check, from the Fighters player, to see if his PC notices as the bartender make his sneaky exit.

After you call for the check, the Cleric Player chimes in with 'I cast guidance!'

Do you allow this, and if so why? How does the Cleric (oblivious to what is going on, and sitting there talking to the Rouge) know that at that very instant, the Fighter across the table from him is engaged in a test of skill to notice something that you dont know exists?

On what possible grounds did the Cleric suddenly (and for no apparent reason) leap forward and call for divine blessing in the name of Moradin, for the Fighter?

And even if for some weird reason you WOULD allow it, and the cleric is somehow able to cast a blessing to assist a PC noticing something, to which you are oblivious, the event has already happened when the DM calls for the check. All we are checking for now is if the PC noticed the event happening.

How would it even be possible to retroactively provide the blessing, before the Bartender went through the secret passage, unknown to the Cleric, and with absolutely no visual (or other) clues that there was even a 'skill check' being undertaken at that instant in the first place?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What? They're all looking forward as they advance down the hallway. Looking around, alert for danger.

if I want to be alert to danger AND I can pull off a miricle from god helping me see better, this sounds like a GREAT reason to ask god for sight beyond sight...

The DM determines that there is something they might notice, and asks for a Perception check as they reach the 30' mark.

but if we are alert to the danger, are we not already looking (and now we are looking)

The Cleric cant then ask to give Guidance, because he doesnt know there is anything there to notice (and thus cant know that there is a reason to help anyone) and the check has already been asked for.

here is the test. Call for 5 perception checks next game... but when they roll them tell them they see nothing, and if they ask out of game tell them "no nothing was really there" then see if the clerics is 'always' casting guidence... if so he may be under the impression that when ever there is an active roll there is an action... this still sounds like an out of game adult conversation you should have.

Now, if the Cleric suspected there might be something before entering the hallway, he could always declare he will cast it pre-emptively on himself (or someone else) at the start of the hallway, and before they advance down it (and the even that triggers the perception check) of course.

and the difference is?

Why are you looking anywhere at any time?

9 out of 10 times I am not looking anywhere... I am thinking and I may or may not notice something. I am a poop excuse for an explorer though. I can walk into a room and not notice my dog is there, or sit in a room where my fiance is watching a show with my mother and they ask me what I think and I have 0 idea what is going on..."Wait what?"

And why isnt the Cleric casting guidance on you then?

good question

No, it's not.

if I am controlling my cleric, and my cleric is not surprised and not unaware I expect I can cast any cantrip I have.

replace guidence with sacred flame.

if you call for a perception check and the cleric says "I cast sacred flame and my hand glows"

No, I'll explain why. I already have in this thread.

Explanation:

1) Your PC must have a plausible, in game reason, to suspect there is a task at hand, or a challenge of skill,

and if I am looking down my hall way in my home to see what that noise was AND I could magic up better sight "+1d4 perception" would I... most likely.
if I was outside and worried there might be a wolf in the woods AND I could ask god/my guardian angle to make me see/hear/smell better "+1d4 perception" I would.

okay to be fair much like when I don't play for a few weeks I will most likely forget to put up buffs even at will because I am absent minded... but you get the idea and I assume the cleric in question is more wise then I

where the result is in doubt, and important enough to go out of your way to assist in (you need to be able to explain to me what prompted your PC to assist in the task, and how you were aware there was a task that was being performed)

Okay... so instead of saying no you ask "why now" right?
what if teh cleric player says "THe barbarian is about to check out the alley and I am asking god to give him clear sight?"

2) Your PC must cast guidance before that moment passes,

yes but we must also declair them at the table and not talk over... hence why I picked out the word "Before"

example: The DM says "Okay you settle down to camp and take a long rest" the druid player says "Before we take a long rest I dump my slots left into good berry"
The DM says "Okay so you are ready to leave and..." and the warlock player says "Before we are ready to go I want to pick up some more potions"
the player of teh barbarian says "I take the book and throw it in the fire" and the wizard player says "Before he can I stop him"

before matters.

and not after the DM asks for the check to determine success or failure of what occurred in that moment. No retconning Guidance after the DM calls for the check.

retcons are funny things... but that is like the opposite of declaring you do something before something else.

Same deal with the Help action.

so if someone says "I search the desk" and another player says "I help" that's cool, but if the player says "I search teh desk" and the DM gets "roll investigation" before the other player gets "I help" out that too bad!?!? that seems to encourage alot of over talking and interrupting that would be bad enough in person but would make virtual games all but impossible.

 

[Baron Opal II]

I do not disagree with what you are saying (as far as the physical properties of a tent), but once PCs have progressed to 5th level and have widened the scope of their adventuring to the next tier of play enforcing things like "The night is cold, what temperature is your bedroll rated for" seems like it might be out of place.

If for no other reason than the fact that by 5th level almost any mundane equipment is effectively free and there is usually a STR20 character toting around all the party junk OR a haversack/bag that does the same magically.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the lazy tent version might still be worth picking up as a ritual so it's not without merit, but I would argue that it doesn't warrant a 3rd level slot after the change.

I think a better fix would be to just make it work with the same from both sides, and allow a chance to destroy it via cumulative damage or STR and CHA saves.

It does depend on the level of detail you are going for. For me, it becomes relevant due to a number of other consequences.

There are a lot of mundane or preternatural things to buy in my campaign. Coin is important to 9th - 12th level and beyond. Temperature and precipitation can kill the ignorant amazingly quickly; while I might rule on the benefit of shelter only occasionally, travelling during storms, winter, heat waves, or high altitude require some preparation. Consult your local ranger or druid.

An important point that isn't explicit in my previous post is that tiny hut in my game isn't some impenetrable bunker, but a magical tent. I take environmental issues into consideration, but an angry grizzly can ruin your evening.

That said, I've been looking through my old Arduin books the other day, and there was usually some hp rating for force walls and effects. I'm like to return to that. For tiny hut, it is likely to have a rating around one round's worth of bear damage. Enough to let you wake up, swear at whomever was on watch, and grab your weapon or wand.

Your PCs are sitting at a table in a tavern chatting. All but one (the Fighter) has their back to the Bar, and blocked by a wall. You determine that the Bartender - who is also secretly a Zentarim spy (and only visible to the Fighter) secretly pulls a lever, and sneakily enters a secret door to the basement. The Fighter is the only person possibly able to see this happen.

For my sake, I would consider letting the cleric cast guidance. However, I also limit cantrips to Attribute mod + Proficiency bonus times per day. Once there is an opportunity cost people are more judicious in its use. I allow it to be cast somewhat mysteriously (the cleric has no knowledge or reason to cast it otherwise) as part of the game aspect of the RPG. The cleric feels moved by their Patron that an ally could use a blessing.

Cantrip House Rules
Castings per Day: Attribute mod + Proficiency bonus
Damaging cantrips can affect non-target objects in accord with their damage type. Firebolt can already ignite a campfire, but acid splash can corrode metal, ray of frost freeze a cupful of water, &c. They also do not increase in damage with level.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

@GMforPowergamers

Your PCs are sitting at a table in a tavern chatting. All but one (the Fighter) has their back to the Bar, and blocked by a wall. You determine that the Bartender - who is also secretly a Zentarim spy (and only visible to the Fighter) secretly pulls a lever, and sneakily enters a secret door to the basement. The Fighter is the only person possibly able to see this happen.

cool... I mean I love thaat the party doesn't do the whole "I only sit with my back to a wall" thing that I used to joke made everything look like the last supper.

You call for a Perception check, from the Fighters player, to see if his PC notices as the bartender make his sneaky exit.

Okay that's cool

After you call for the check, the Cleric Player chimes in with 'I cast guidance!'

sorry your suprised and can take no action...

Do you allow this, and if so why? How does the Cleric (oblivious to what is going on, and sitting there talking to the Rouge) know that at that very instant, the Fighter across the table from him is engaged in a test of skill to notice something that you dont know exists?

that's not at all the situation you framed before... and falls well into my two exception (surprised and/or not able to interact)

On what possible grounds did the Cleric suddenly (and for no apparent reason) leap forward and call for divine blessing in the name of Moradin, for the Fighter?

again that is simple "sorry your surprised"

personally I am surprised that when asked to describe where they are sitting they didn't put the high wisdom/perception character looking at the room... but maybe just cause that is what I am used to.

And even if for some weird reason you WOULD allow it, and the cleric is somehow able to cast a blessing to assist a PC noticing something, to which you are oblivious, the event has already happened when the DM calls for the check. All we are checking for now is if the PC noticed the event happening.

except it has not happened... it has been declaired (in this case in the DMs mind if not out loud) and the action IS resolving it has not resolved yet.

How would it even be possible to retroactively provide the blessing,

here you go with retroactive again. It isn't retroactive in the game (not that I think many people are asking to use a spell when surprised anyway)

before the Bartender went through the secret passage, unknown to the Cleric, and with absolutely no visual (or other) clues that there was even a 'skill check' being undertaken at that instant in the first place?

skill check is the clue here... there are no skill checks in the story in the game... it is noticing it is looking, it is perceiving... Guidence out of game is "Bonus to a skill/ability" but in game it is "my god helps you do a thing...almost anything really" so anytime it is in qustion just ask "If the caster cast a diffrent spell would I allow it?" then think through what the interactions is.


Here is an example from one of my own games.

A PC is a divine soul sorcerer/bard and has guidance AND inspiration and like a bunch of buff spells. He is always so scared to ask "wait can I cast guidance" becuse other DMs have told him "you can't" every time he has tried... let me lay out a few "Yeah of course you cans"

the dragon born picks up a vial and declares "I want to use alchemy to identify it, and int plus skill plus roll is 17" "can I use guidance" "Yeah, add the d4"
the shadar ki rogue says he is going to sneak ahead to see if the ghouls are ahead... "Can I inspire and guidance him even though I don't know what rolls he needs?" "Yeah of course you can"
the warforged fighter says "I pull my crowbar out an try to pop the lock, is that athletics or just str, crowbar gives advantage righte?" "Can I cast Guidence?" "Yeah, I keep telling you as long as you are not surprised and can interact you can cast any cantrips you have"
and most on point...
about 6 weeks ago player of the rogue "I bet there are shadow beasts watching us, someone should check" fighter player "Um, yeah remember I suck at noticing anything someone else do it" dragonborn player "Oh I can do you want me to roll or use passive?" me "That depends is the conversation in or out of game and are you activly looking? rogue player "Out of game I am saying someone else should think of it" dragon born player "Yeah, but my character is paranoid enough to think that... so I want to activly look can I roll?" me (knowing there is nothing there) "yeah roll I guess" bard/sorcerer "Can I give him guadience?" "Why?" i ask "When I see him looking around it's like helping him..." "Okay roll it" I say and both the d20 and the d4 come up as 2's giveing the DB less then 10... so I say "Your sure your safe nothing here."

 

[Flamestrike]

sorry your suprised and can take no action...

We're not in combat, there is no surprise.

about 6 weeks ago player of the rogue "I bet there are shadow beasts watching us, someone should check" fighter player "Um, yeah remember I suck at noticing anything someone else do it"

Yeah that's ridiculous, bad roleplaying on his part (unless he's deliberately playing a dude totally without confidence and crippled with anxiety), and metagaming.

If you and I were at war, and I asked you (as in you, yourself) 'Hey dude, I think there are enemy soldiers over there in those bushes' do you:

a) Look over at the bushes, and try and look for the things trying to kill you?

or

b) Keep looking at me while calmly tell me you suck at looking for enemy soldiers, and request someone else look over in the bushes for them?

If someone in my party told me there were likely monsters 'over there' I would (if I was playing pretty much any realistic and believable character) look 'over there' and try and spot the monsters.