Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk

[Cleon]

Werepseudodragon

Werepseudodragon, Forest Gnome Form
Small Humanoid (Gnome, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 plus 2d12+6 (25 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, +2 natural, +4 chain shirt, +1 light shield), touch 11, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/–1
Attack: Longsword +4 melee (1d6/19-20) or light crossbow +5 ranged (1d6/19-20)
Full Attack: Longsword +4 melee (1d6/19-20) or light crossbow +5 ranged (1d6/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Alternate form, blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., drakanthropic communication, forest gnome traits, immunity to sleep and paralysis, low-light vision, pass without trace, scent, spell resistance 19, telepathy 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +5
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: Craft (alchemy) +2, Hide +11*ᴬ (+15 in forests), Listen +8, Spot +8
ᴬ includes –3 armor check penalty
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Focus (light crossbow), Iron Willᴮ, Weapon Finesseᴮ

Werepseudodragon, Pseudodragon Form
Tiny Humanoid (Gnome, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 plus 2d12+6 (25 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 15 ft. (3 squares), fly 60 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 20 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/–5
Attack: Sting +7 melee (1d3 plus poison)
Full Attack: Sting +7 melee (1d3 plus poison) and bite +2 melee (1)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft. (5 ft. with tail)
Special Attacks: Poison
Special Qualities: Alternate form, blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., damage reduction 10/silver, drakanthropic communication, forest gnome traits, immunity to sleep and paralysis, low-light vision, pass without trace, scent, spell resistance 19, telepathy 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: Craft (alchemy) +2, Hide +20* (+24 in forests), Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Focus (light crossbow), Iron Willᴮ, Weapon Finesseᴮ

Werepseudodragon, Hybrid Form
Small Humanoid (Gnome, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 plus 2d12+6 (25 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 30 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 19 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+1
Attack: Sting +6 melee (1d4+2 plus poison); or bite +6 melee (1d2+2); or longsword +6 melee (1d6+2/19-20); or light crossbow +6 ranged (1d6/19-20)
Full Attack: Sting +6 melee (1d4+2 plus poison) and bite +1 melee (1d2+1) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d4+1); or longsword +6 melee (1d6+2/19-20) and sting +1 melee (1d4+2 plus poison) and bite +1 melee (1d2+1) and claw +1 melee (1d4+1); or light crossbow +6 ranged (1d6/10-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Alternate form, blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., damage reduction 10/silver, drakanthropic communication, forest gnome traits, immunity to sleep and paralysis, low-light vision, pass without trace, scent, spell resistance 19, telepathy 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: Craft (alchemy) +2, Hide +16* (+20 in forests), Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Focus (light crossbow), Iron Willᴮ, Weapon Finesseᴮ

Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or clutch (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always neutral good
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: —

A petite humanoid dragon less than half as tall as a human, bat-winged and covered in fine scales the red-brown of autumn leaves. Its long flexible tail ends in a bulbous barb resembling a scorpion's stinger.

These drakanthropes of forest gnome and pseudodragon are extremely shy and reclusive, so it is hard to determine how rare they are. They are naturally benign and have been known to aid visitors to their woodland homes, although they avoid revealing themselves as they do so. If they must communicate with a stranger, werepseudodragons prefer to do so telepathically while in hiding. These creatures have a playful side and occasionally play pranks on others. This mischief is harmless or helpful if the other creature appears benevolent, but will aim to sabotage or repel a hostile intruder.

A forest gnome werepseudodragon is about 1 foot long in dragon form with a 2-foot tail and weighs about 7 pounds. In humanoid and hybrid form it stands 2 to 2½ feet tall. The forest gnome form weighs around 25 to 30 pounds, the hybrid form is about 40 pounds and has a 3- to 4-foot long tail.

This werepseudodragon speaks Draconic, Gnome, Elven, Sylvan, and a simple language that enables them to communicate on a very basic level with forest animals.

Combat
Forest gnome werepseudodragons avoid combat, preferring to use their stealth and spell-like abilities to avoid direct confrontations and lead opponents away. If forced to fight, they rely on their venomous sting.

Alternate Form (Su): A werepseudodragon can assume a bipedal hybrid form or the form of a pseudodragon.

Blindsense (Ex): A werepseudodragon can locate creatures within 60 feet by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibration and other environmental clues). Opponents the pseudodragon can't actually see still have total concealment against the pseudodragon.

Drakanthropic Communication: A werepseudodragon can communicate with pseudodragons. It can speak Draconic when in dragon form even if the base dragon cannot.

Forest Gnome Traits: In addition to the forest gnome's automatic and bonus languages, pass without trace, spell-like abilities and racial skill bonuses, this werepseudodragon possesses the following:
● Low-light vision.
● Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
● +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions.
● Add +1 to the saving throw DCs for all illusion spells the gnome casts. This stacks with similar effects, such as the Spell Focus feat.
● +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds, goblinoids, orcs, and reptilian humanoids.
● +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants).

Pass without Trace (Su): A forest gnome has the innate ability to use pass without trace (self only, as a free action) as the spell cast by a druid of the forest gnome's class levels.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial damage sleep for 1 minute, secondary damage sleep for 1d3 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound (DC 12), prestidigitation. Caster level 1st.

Telepathy (Su): Werepseudodragons can communicate telepathically with creatures that speak Common or Sylvan, provided they are within 60 feet.

Skills: In dragon form, werepseudodragons have a chameleonlike ability that grants them a +4 racial bonus* on Hide checks. Forest gnomes have a +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) and Listen checks as well as a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks, which improves to +8 in a wooded area.

*In forests or overgrown areas, this bonus improves to +8.

The werepseudodragon presented here is a 1st-level forest gnome warrior, using the following base ability scores: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

Notes
Base Saves: Fort +2+3+2/3, Ref +0+3+0/+2, Will +0+3+0
Gnome Skills (8 SPs): Hide 2 ranks, Spot 2 ranks
Pseudodragon Skills (12 SPs): Hide 4 ranks, Listen 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks
Total Skill Ranks: Hide 6 ranks (+ in forests and wooded or overgrown areas), Listen 4 ranks, Spot 6 ranks

 

[Cleon]

Well it wasn't the evening in question, but I got it started.

I'm definitely thinking the Hybrid Form could benefit from a boost in Strength.

Having it be weaker than the Base Humanoid is just weird!

We could just have it use whichever form's physical ability is better? So Str 11, Dex 15, Con 16? That seems more sensible than my earlier idea of applying the Improving Size modifier if there's a difference in sizes that makes the hybrid (or dragon?) form weaker than feels correct.

Also, I realized that the Werewyvern should not have "and natural lycanthrope" in the last paragraph - it's not a lycanthrope for a start! Plus we decided drakanthropy isn't contagious and drakanthropes aren't divided into natural and infected versions.

I've cut the "and natural lycanthrope" out of the Working Drafts.

 

[freyar]

In addition, when in dragon form, a weredrake's physical ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to either +8 Strength and +2 Constitution or to the base dragon's normal ability scores -10 or -11, whichever is higher.

A weredrake in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

Example: A pseudodragon has Str 6, Dex 15, Con 13; the base dragon's Strength -10 or -11 would provide a –4 adjustment so a weredrake uses +8 instead, resulting in werepseudodragon physical ability score adjustments of Str +8, Dex +4, Con +2 in dragon or hybrid form.

This is what you had, which would give our werepseudodragon Str 19, Dex 15, Con 16, right? So, if I follow what you're saying, you'd prefer to change this text just to use the base humanoid's physical ability scores when they're better than the base dragons. Is that right? Hmm. I can see the logic both ways: it's a bit weird for it to be stronger than either base creature, but you do want it to get some boost from switching to hybrid form.

 

[Cleon]

This is what you had, which would give our werepseudodragon Str 19, Dex 15, Con 16, right? So, if I follow what you're saying, you'd prefer to change this text just to use the base humanoid's physical ability scores when they're better than the base dragons. Is that right? Hmm. I can see the logic both ways: it's a bit weird for it to be stronger than either base creature, but you do want it to get some boost from switching to hybrid form.

As written, the current Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft gives it:

Abilities #1​

Gnome Form: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14​

Pseudodragon Form: Str 19 Dex 15 Con 16​

Hybrid Form: Str 19 Dex 15 Con 16​

Since we've put a minimum of +8 Str +2 Con for the ability modifiers to match the Half-Dragon template, as we reckoned a drakanthrope's stats shouldn't be worse than a Half-Dragon.

That does seem way too high though.

Well, Half-Dragons are half true dragon, so maybe the +8 Strength minimum is only for true drakanthropes (i.e. weredragons) and weredrakes just use the standard Lycanthrope adjustment of ability-10? That'd be:

Abilities #2​

Gnome Form: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14​

Pseudodragon Form: Str 7 Dex 15 Con 16​

Hybrid Form: Str 7 Dex 15 Con 16​

However, that'd make the werepseudodragon weaker as a draconic humanoic than it is as a humanoid, which hardly seems right!

If we have the hybrid form use whichever base form's ability is greater (the Gnome's Strength, the Pseudodragon's Dexterity and Constitution) it'd become:

Abilities #3​

Gnome Form: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14​

Pseudodragon Form: Str 7 Dex 15 Con 16​

Hybrid Form: Str 11 Dex 15 Con 16​

Which feels a bit weaksauce, as you said.

So are we sticking to the Lycanthrope precedent of the creature having the same stats in "Beast" and Hybrid forms?

If so, maybe use the ability formula as per the Weredrake (Vulgar Drakanthrope) Working Draft but reduce the minimum Strength modifier from +8 to +4, to make it:

Abilities #4​

Gnome Form: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14​

Pseudodragon Form: Str 15 Dex 15 Con 16​

Hybrid Form: Str 15 Dex 15 Con 16​

We could use the Draconic Creature template's ability modifiers of +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha I guess, but I think a Weredrake should be a bit more potent than any old scaly.

I would consider fashioning the template's ability adjustments so the hybrid form can have different stats to the dragon form, maybe by adding the standard size modifier adjustments if the dragon form is smaller than the hybrid form? Which'd make it:

Abilities #5
Gnome Form: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14
Pseudodragon Form: Str 11 Dex 15 Con 16
Hybrid Form: Str 15 Dex 15 Con 16​

What thinks thee?

 

[freyar]

Yeah, all those these have something weird. But I think I like #5 best. I was thinking of something along those lines but applying negative size modifiers as well, which makes it even weaker.

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, all those these have something weird. But I think I like #5 best. I was thinking of something along those lines but applying negative size modifiers as well, which makes it even weaker.

I think that suits me, but it seems prudent checking how it works for a giant sized weredrake such as a Large base creature with a Medium base dragon as that'd involve the +8 Large size adjustment.

For example, a Frost Giant Ice Lizard (Icedrake):

Frost Giant: Str 29 Dex 9 Con 21
Medium Ice Lizard: Str 17 Dex 11 Con 15 (base is Small and Str 13, +4 for advancing to 7-9 HD Medium)

#5
Giant Form: Str 29, Dex 9, Con 21
Icedrake Form: Str 27 Dex 9 Con 25
Hybrid Form: Str 35 Dex 9 Con 25

Hmm, I guess that works OK.

What do you think?

 

[freyar]

I think it's fine. There are too many possibilities for anything reasonable to work absolutely perfectly for every example. It seems good enough.

That should take care of the attack line too, then, right? Does that just leave combat and flavor?

 

[Cleon]

I think it's fine. There are too many possibilities for anything reasonable to work absolutely perfectly for every example. It seems good enough.

That should take care of the attack line too, then, right? Does that just leave combat and flavor?

Okay, although we do need to rephrase the Weredrake's Abilities line now we've agreed we're going for Option #5.

How about:

Abilities: All weredrakes gain +2 to Wisdom and +2 to Charisma.

In addition, when in hybrid form, a weredrake's physical ability scores improve according to its kind. These adjustments are equal to either +4 Strength and +2 Constitution or to the base dragon's normal ability scores –10 or –11, whichever is higher.

A weredrake in dragon form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount unless the dragon form is smaller than the hybrid form, in which case the hybrid form's Strength adjustment is reduced according to the Changes to Statistics by Size Table.

Table: Changes to Statistics by Size

Old Size (Base Creature & Hybrid)	New Size (Dragon Form)	Strength​
Diminutive	Fine	Same​
Tiny	Diminutive	–2​
Small	Tiny	–4​
Medium	Small	–4​
Large	Medium	–8​
Huge	Large	–8​
Gargantuan	Huge	–8​
Colossal	Gargantuan	–8​

Example: A pseudodragon has Str 6, Dex 15, Con 13; the base dragon's Strength –10 or –11 would provide a –4 adjustment so a weredrake uses Str +4 instead, or Str +0 if hybrid form is Small. The resulting weredrake has werepseudodragon physical ability score adjustments of Str +4 or +0, Dex +4, Con +2 in dragon or hybrid form.

Tried compacting the Size Table by collapsing the rows, but not sure it works:

Table: Changes to Statistics by Size

Old Size (Base Creature & Hybrid)	New Size (Dragon Form)	Strength​
Diminutive	Fine	Same​
Tiny	Diminutive	–2​
Small, Medium	Tiny, Small	–4​
Large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal	Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan	–8​

What do you think?

 

[Cleon]

I think it's fine. There are too many possibilities for anything reasonable to work absolutely perfectly for every example. It seems good enough.

That should take care of the attack line too, then, right? Does that just leave combat and flavor?

While you digest my previous post I might as well update the Werepseudodragon Working Draft.

 

[freyar]

I guess I've had enough time to digest.

It looks pretty good. While I like the aesthetics of the smaller table, I'm not sure if someone might get confused. It's probably best to stick with the larger table. It looks more like the SRD one. I am a little confused by the wording of the example of the werepseudodragon, though. Do you just mean to say that you mean the hybrid form has Str +4 and the dragon form has Str +0 (as for the sample)?