Pathfinder 1E Sorcerer with more spells known

[Particle_Man]

I was thinking of a Human Sorcerer (Verdant bloodline) that takes the feat "Expanded Arcana" to get an extra spell known at max. level, and uses favoured class bonus as often as possible to get an extra spell known at (max.level - 1). I would even pick traits Magical Talent (stabilize) and Sacred Touch, to give more options. Just to complete the picture I would take Fleet as the bonus feats for the bloodline. So in some ways the character would be simpler, albeit with more spells known.

But on to "spells known". I think the table would start to look like this:

Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (if human sorcerer with right feats and class bonus)

0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 5 4 — — — — — — — —
2nd 7 4 — — — — — — — —
3rd 8 6+ — — — — — — — —
4th 9 7+ 1 — — — — — — —
5th 9 9+ 3+ — — — — — — —
6th 10 9+ 4+ 1 — — — — — —
7th 10 10+ 6+ 3+ — — — — — —
8th 11 10+ 6+ 4+ 1 — — — — —
9th 11 10+ 7+ 6+ 3+ — — — — —
10th 12 10+ 7+ 6+ 4+ 1 — — — —
11th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 6+ 3+ — — — —
12th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 6+ 4+ 1 — — —
13th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 3+ — — —
14th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 4+ 1 — —
15th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 3+ — —
16th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 4+ 1 —
17th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 6+ 3+ —
18th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 6+ 4+ 1
19th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 6+ 6+ 3+
20th 12 10+ 8+ 7+ 7+ 7+ 6+ 6+ 7+ 4+

The "+" is for the bloodline.

So, two questions, each subdivided:

1 a) Is this increase in spells known enough to bump the sorcerer from Tier 2 to Tier 1?

1 b) If not, what is the minimum number of spells known by level that would be required to do so (I assume that "spells known: all on sorcerer/wizard spell list" would do so, but that a lesser amount would also do so).

2 a) Given the increase in spells known, the verdant bloodline and the above traits, and spells from the Pathfinder Core Book and the Advanced Players Guide, what would be good sorcerer spells to take?

2 b) Which would be good spells to keep, and which would be good to trade off at even numbered levels (4th to 20th, inclusive)?

 

[sheadunne]

I think the only way to increase the sorcerer to tier 1 is to gain a faster spell progression. It doesn't matter how many spells known if the character is still one level off from the wizard/cleric. How many castings of levitate equal 1 casting of fly? How many mage armors equal 1 casting of mirror image? Etc.

 

[Dandu]

I don't know if increasing spells known does it, but (ab)using Paragon Surge certainly will.

 

[Particle_Man]

Thanks! I think I will avoid Paragon Surge in play (I like my DM and don't want tears), but what is the trick to abusing it? Just getting any metamagic feat you need when you need it?

 

[andreww]

Thanks! I think I will avoid Paragon Surge in play (I like my DM and don't want tears), but what is the trick to abusing it? Just getting any metamagic feat you need when you need it?

Not quite. The trick is to take Expanded Arcana when you cast it giving you spontaneous access to any spell you are of a high enough level to cast. It massively increases your out of combat utility as you can access whichever niche spell you need when you need it and frees up your other spells known for combat, defence and immediate utility.

 

[Ramaster]

I think the only way to increase the sorcerer to tier 1 is to gain a faster spell progression. It doesn't matter how many spells known if the character is still one level off from the wizard/cleric. How many castings of levitate equal 1 casting of fly? How many mage armors equal 1 casting of mirror image? Etc.

This.

So, to answer your questions:

1 a) No.
1 b) I think that, even if you knew all the spells on your list for every level you can cast (like the Favored Soul did in 3.5, if I remember correctly) you still won't be as powerful a wizard, with a faster spell progression. Note that this is true UNTIL you hit level 18 and learn 9th level spell, then... well... I assume you do become tier 1!
2 a) At 1st level you have Magic Missile and Mage Armor. There are a bunch of utility spells you can get a higher levels, too. For second level the buffs work great (+4 to a stat) and Invisibility is godly; apart from that, Flaming Sphere and Scorching Ray are your go to damage spells. 3rd level hits you with a ton of useful spells, like Fireball, Blink and Fly. That's enough to get you to level 7. But my main advice is to take Summon Monster spells at every level.
2 b) Damage spells that don't scale well past certain level, buff that provide bonuses that are already covered by magic items you found (Mage armor - Bracers of Armor; Eagle's Splendor - Headband of Charisma, etc), etc.

 

[Particle_Man]

Not quite. The trick is to take Expanded Arcana when you cast it giving you spontaneous access to any spell you are of a high enough level to cast. It massively increases your out of combat utility as you can access whichever niche spell you need when you need it and frees up your other spells known for combat, defence and immediate utility.

Oh dear. Yeah, I better stay away from that one. Well I did restrict myself to the core book and the advanced player's guide, at least.

And thanks for your replies.

 

[Rampageofsouls]

2 cents take it or leave it

If This post is stuff you already know then I apologize in advance
​

I like your build.... the Verdant blood line gives an almost druid feel to your Sorcerer. The favored class bonus to expand spells known is really sweet as well...... I did not even know it existed and had to look it up...

I would like to make a few suggestions and comments....

Do not use a feat to buy 5 ft of movement it does not work.... Why? It takes 10 ft of movement to out pace someone with equal movement....
(In a single round) 5ft still puts you in attack range. Even you you can move 10 extra feet npcs and monsters with reach or the newer feat lunge..... will still hit you...
There is a line of feats that allow you to use dimension door better think about those instead. OR...

Instead:
I think using at least one feat to buy a stealth skill is almost a must for this build, you loose 20 hp by level 20 because of how you are using your favored class bonus.... which in my mind is still worth the trade off however, you will just have to be careful at all times....being careful will also keep you from needing the improved insh. feat, as you will enter combat most of the time on your terms..

I don't like that pathfinder has given nearly all monsters the improved insh. feat. Its almost a feat tax now in order to keep up with the jones.... Loosing insh. for every battle will take its toll quickly.

The Sorcerer shines in long drawn out battles or in adventures that have many encounters because of the # of times a day they can cast spells.... Advancing this ability is VERY important... To improve on this make sure you get rings of wizardry as soon as possible..... This will also increase the sorcerers specialty when compared to other wizards.... ie your double will be larger... I am unsure of the specifics but if your gm allows you to wear one of each level ie... 1 through 4 then using feats to buy expanded ring slots IS A MUST!!!

Spells you should select..... The execptions on this list means you should get them as well

#1 all the normal personal defensive spells.... shield ect..... (summon monster can be used defensively and can be leveled up as you see fit)
#2 anything that hides you and has a duration in rounds, obscuring mist, fog, invis., ect. .... Exception: exp retreat
#3 your damage dealing spells should also have a duration in rounds, acid arrow, flaming sphere ect.... Exception make sure you still have one or two "kill em all NOW" area effect spells. These you can trade out at each level for the latest and greatest
#4 any spell that will add hp..... and get these on magic items as soon as you can.... false life ect.... Still keep them on your "know" list unless you have them on a wand ect... because they will need refreshed..
#5 only after you have completed your survival and offensive spell list do you worry about group buffs ect..... exception teleport and that is because you might need it. Your first job is to help keep your self alive and then to keep your party alive.... In the End...so what if you and your party cant fly to Paris for the weekend for cheese cake. I am sure that demon lord will understand as he is eating your soul, and take it easy on you. Exception: if you find you can do this as well as all the rest by all means go for it..

ROLE Play ideas:
See if your gm will allow you to buy a Paired down (or limited) access to the druid spell list. This will would be a cool idea, give your character flavor, and make you stand out from all the other sorcerers around town... It also would not hurt as you run around the forest with your verdant skills in tow.....

If your GM is really friendly then maybe he will let you get, acquire, befriend a druid animal companion....

Scrolls... Wands... and charged items of both spells you Know and don't know are going to help you out allot..... If the time allows whether you are in or out of combat use one of these first and personally cast only if you have to.....

PS: IF any of these ideas does not sound fun then Don't do emm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WARNINGS:
This build is risky in a combat heavy campaign. Off the top of my head by lv 20 you will be down on average about 40 hp. This is not a huge deal when you are in your element inside of a forest but down inside a dungeon it will be tricky.... Even with handy haversacks full of plants in tow.... You will always have an encounter or two that does not go your way ie... you are surprised, the opponents can see through invs. ect...
Have contingency plans......

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOUR PARTY HAVE A FIGHTER AND A FIGHTER LIGHT to split hp dmg since your hp pool is going to be hidden by design.
EXAMPLE: your party should have a fighter and one of the following: ranger, paladin, barbarian, cavalier, ect.... If it does not then you should always be in party sneak mode and be able to flee as a group at a moments notice.... Yes I know party mechanics are tricky and something you cant control but explain whats up and maybe they will listen

Combat notes: invis at all times!!! (Will need wand of invs) Lock down extra numbers first with verdant skills, color spray, sleep ect. If you cant, divide the numbers with summoned walls ect.... Seal yourself off if you have to using force cage, walls that do not go from floor to ceiling yet are high enough to block off enemies. Use flaming sphere and damaging auras to make it costly to engage you in hand to hand combat.... Also use at least one summon monster as an intercept in battles that you cant control or have huge baddies that will tear through your defensive spells...

 

[Particle_Man]

Interesting ideas. Thanks!