So what can 4e learn from 5e?

[Tigris]

I’d revise to add this. Way too many tiny, pointless feats in 4E.

Well in general: Having less bad options.


Its not only feats, there were also quite a lot of powers (a bit less for items), which were just really weak and did not really add much to the game. Of course its good to have options, but if there are too many which are not useful at all, it just makes it harder to find the ones which are useful.


Also to this part I think something 4E could learn from pathfinder is to have "Combat" and "non combat" feats. Some of the weak feats are more for flavour/non combat and just cant compete with the combat ones, but if you would get 1 "non combat feat" per lets say 5 levels, some of the weak feats could still have some value.


(Although I am not 100% sure about this, making the leveling up more complicated, is not necessarily good. In PF2 I feel like there are too many different feats you get and some of them are hardly remarkable).

Yeah I think you should only be able to know two reactions at a time: opportunity attack, plus one from your class. Having multiple off-turn options on one character is too much of a distraction IMO. And for interrupts, it should be only 1 per character.

I agree that reactions can slow down combat, and I am also not 100% sure if so many are needed, but they also make combat feel more interactive. They should, however, be simpler. Not disrupting the flow, needing an attack roll and damage roll. This will cost quite a bit of time.


Emberwind has "number of reactions per combat" as a stat, so if you want to do more reaction you have at least to invest in it. I think thats a good middle way.

 

[Voadam]

5e lair actions are often a fun thematic addition for boss monsters that could add mechanically and narratively to the fight environment.

 

[Zeromaru X]

5e lair actions are often a fun thematic addition for boss monsters that could add mechanically and narratively to the fight environment.

Isn't that what fantastic terrain and environmental hazards are for?

 

[Voadam]

Isn't that what fantastic terrain and environmental hazards are for?

A little bit?

Lair actions are extra combat actions that the legendary creature does harnessing the magic of its lair to make it more powerful there.

Fantastic Terrain and environmental hazards are generally things I think of as more neutrally there to be dealt with by everybody instead of a definitionally straight boss power up. A PC can push a monster into an environmental hazard or take advantage of fantastic terrain.

So in 4e terms elite vampire attacks you on the road but in his castle he gets extra combat actions that turn him into a solo or a higher level elite.

5e legendary creature regional effects are more like fantastic terrain and environmental hazards but ones that are consistently caused by the presence of some specific legendary creature and so can be a clue to the creature's regional presence and specifically reinforce the theme of the creature and their magical impact on the area.

 

[Tigris]

A little bit?

Lair actions are extra combat actions that the legendary creature does harnessing the magic of its lair to make it more powerful there.

Fantastic Terrain and environmental hazards are generally things I think of as more neutrally there to be dealt with by everybody instead of a definitionally straight boss power up. A PC can push a monster into an environmental hazard or take advantage of fantastic terrain.

So in 4e terms elite vampire attacks you on the road but in his castle he gets extra combat actions that turn him into a solo or a higher level elite.

5e legendary creature regional effects are more like fantastic terrain and environmental hazards but ones that are consistently caused by the presence of some specific legendary creature and so can be a clue to the creature's regional presence and specifically reinforce the theme of the creature and their magical impact on the area.

For me the lair action just feel like a cheap fix for the not working action economy in 5E which are needed to make a solo work at all. (Together with the legendary resistance).


You can also have traps in 4E (which are mostly against the party), not only hazards. And traps already have encounter budget. And if it is just the flavour you want, you can still narrate that one of the cool special powers which a 4E solo normally has, comes from the lair. 5E mostly needs that since cool solos lack such cool abilities.

 

[ruemere]

Proficiency bonus instead of straight level add for attacks, skills and saves.

 

[Kannik]

Hmmm, seconding the above or adding to the list, from off the top of my head:

Less feats, but more impactful ones.

Remove the base/generic +X hit and +X damage and +X defensive feats (most of which were a feat fix for improper math – revised 4e would fix the math). Something like “flail expertise” wouldn’t give a blanket +X to hit or damage, but instead special properties for the weapon (such as its existing prone when you can slide ability, and a few more, since there are less feats)

Do the same for magic items. No Iron Armbands of Power. Neat stuff, not pure math necessities.

Include finesse weapons.

Every class whose schtick is using weapons gets to use said weapons for basic attacks with their prime attribute, without spending a feat.

Perhaps reduce the base bonus increase from +1 per 2 levels to +1 per 3 levels. Compresses the spread a bit. (could add a bonus + at tier shifts)

No attribute bonuses for ancestry choice.

4e did this later in its run, and 5e kinda does it through lair actions: all solos act multiple times per turn, and can shrug off otherwise nullifying conditions (ie stunlock).

Not that lair actions can’t be a thing – can lean more into 4e’s start into terrain effects.

More class riders/abilities as you level up that aren’t tied to just powers. We started to see this with themes (you got something at 5 and 10); make it more broad for class and background and themes.

(This one doesn’t come from 5e, but I would follow the above and make classes more strictly about power source, and other flavour abilities would be a new selection of class that would offer both leveled abilities as well as utility power choices. So you could have a ranger-esque profession that gives many of the things we often associate with rangers, such as herbalism and tracking and survival and terrain knowledge. Then you could have a band of rangers, with one as a divine warrior (paladin), one as a primal caster (druid), one as an archer (ranger class), etc.)

A few of the archtypes not well handled or not in 4e: better beastmaster, drakewarden, armorer, battle smith, artillerist, circle of stars, drunken master, arcane trickster…

I would take Magic Missile from a cantrip and into a 1st level encounter or daily power. Allows you do so more with it (as it’s power level is higher) including be auto-hit without accidentally gimping it.


I'll add more as I think of them.

 

[Neonchameleon]

One of the things I think 4e could learn is the power of subclasses and of more intuitive design. 4e for me was great for almost anyone who count translate from the mechanics to the actions, and anyone who made it through character creation. But ... not everyone could.

Subclasses were a 4e thing - but they weren't strong enough or clear enough to carry the fantasy. And could easily be done as packages, allowing for off-meta picks with additional bonuses (the 5e war priest among others actually did this). 4e had for me the most flavour of any D&D but required more assembly. And that put people off.

 

[Kannik]

One of the things I think 4e could learn is the power of subclasses and of more intuitive design.

Aye, funnily enough I was just thinking about this last night as well. 4e ended up with two types of subclasses; one for certain classes like the fighter that got different classes but, more like 1e/2e, were categorized under a "category class" so they could share feats (such as the Fighter, with its Weaponmaster, Slayer, and Knight classes), and the other being the "build" based on a class feature that could radically affect how the class operated and even what powers were best to pick (such as, in keeping with the Fighter, the Arena, Battlerager, Brawler, or Tempest).

Part of the thing was the evolving nature of 4e, as they added new ideas and elements and (sub)systems to allow for more ideas and concepts and cool ways of play. But it had to be force-fit into the existing structure. Starting over from scratch would allow these to be organized and slotted in a more logical and presentable way.

 

[Kariotis]

Starting over from scratch would allow these to be organized and slotted in a more logical and presentable way.

As in, for example, to your taste?