So is Dragon magazine becoming upcoming ads?

[Cadfan]

waitaminute... so because the power format takes up more space (in a virtual magazine ) it should count as more than an article with an equal amount of feats for 3.x that takes up less space (In a print magazine with ads necessary to support it)? I don't know if I necessarily agree with that premise. Also is it just Dragon original/exclusive content we are looking at?

Hey, rationalize things however you want, but if you come back and just list the number of articles in the table of contents without considering whether those articles are actually the same length, we'll all assume that you're just concern trolling.

 

[Shroomy]

I'm wondering when the player/DM content split is going to be in full force, because Dragon is still getting plenty of DM articles, which means less player articles.

The split happens this month.

 

[alleynbard]

Hey, rationalize things however you want, but if you come back and just list the number of articles in the table of contents without considering whether those articles are actually the same length, we'll all assume that you're just concern trolling.

He actually stated a legitimate concern. Page length doesn't necessarily give us an idea of value vs money when the new format is something of page hog. A 3e article might actually have the same or more spells, feats, etc. in a smaller space than a 4e article that features a new class. There is a big difference between a 3e article that features a new class and a 4e article that does the same. And that difference isn't necessarily value for money.

I think noting page numbers is a good idea, but I don't think it is necessarily a good sign of value. We would also need number of articles, features of those articles (for instance, list how many feats/spells/items an article has), and what those articles are covering. I think it is important to also point out a fluff to crunch ratio for each article. Not to prove/disprove that one is less story oriented than another, but so we know why an article might have less or more mechanical material.

And, Imaro, I think leaving preview content out of both counts might be a good idea. Just a thought though.

 

[MerricB]

I think noting page numbers is a good idea, but I don't think it is necessarily a good sign of value. We would also need number of articles, features of those articles (for instance, list how many feats/spells/items an article has), and what those articles are covering. I think it is important to also point out a fluff to crunch ratio for each article. Not to prove/disprove that one is less story oriented than another, but so we know why an article might have less or more mechanical material.

The definition of amount of content in each e-magazine is word count. That's the limit that the editors work to. # Pages is irrelevant; word count is what is important.

Cheers!

 

[Imaro]

So first comparison up (randomly selected) is Dragon 310 and Dragon 377

Ok...

Dragon 310... 106 pgs
Barbarians Article: 11 pgs
Fighters Article: 8 pgs
Monks Article: 6 pgs
Paladins Article: 9 pgs
Rangers Article: 10 pgs
Rogues Article: 10 pgs
Editorial: 1 pg
Scale Mail: 3 pgs
Nodwick(cartoon): 1 pg
The Krells of Tancra's Moor: 8 pgs
DM's Toolbox: 4 pgs
Dungeoncraft: 4 pgs
Sage Advice: 4 pgs
Whats New With Phil & Dixie (cartoon): 1 pg

Dragon 377... 86 pgs
PHB 3 Debut The Psion: 11 pgs
Tu'narath City of Death: 13 pgs
Familiars of Eberron: 9 pgs
Disciples of Vengeance 12 pgs
Bestiary: Legendary Evils: 11 pgs
Explore Airspur: 9pgs
Class Acts The Ranger: 3 pgs
Desgn & Development: Psionics: 4 pgs
Design & Development Eberron 2 pgs
Confessions of a Full Time Wizard: 5 pgs
RPGA Report: 3 pgs
Editorial: 1 pg

Now I'll do some more comparisons as I get time but looking at these two issues in pure content 377 seems to win 87 pgs vs. 80 pgs... However let's remove confessions, since it's free...
(377) 82 vs. (310) 80...

Also RPGA Report...

(377) 79 vs. (310) 80

PHB 3 material as it will be reprinted...

(377) 68 vs. (310) 80...

But hey let's remove Scale Mail and Sage Advice from 310 to be fair...

(377) 68 vs. (310) 73. Now I'll officially stop here but below are just a few more things...

Removing Design & Development from 377 and the cartoons from 310 makes it (377) 62 vs. (310) 71... Thoughts??

 

[alleynbard]

The definition of amount of content in each e-magazine is word count. That's the limit that the editors work to. # Pages is irrelevant; word count is what is important.

Cheers!

Good point.

I would still want some other factors listed, since even word count can be a bit wonky with the powers format, especially if you are featuring a new class for 4e versus 3e. But then, if you eliminate preview material that statement is likely a moot one since I don't think any new core classes have appeared exclusively on the DDi (that is, a class not appearing as a preview) and that is where the major difference will lie.

But your point is definitely correct.

That said, I won't blame Imaro if he doesn't want to count every word in the printed version of Dragon.

 

[charlesatan]

Some points I'd like to mention:

* 4E Dragon is theoretically more playtested than 3E Dragon magazine (which is probably why there's more "previews" than content that won't be reprinted anywhere else).

* Some people find value in previews, or getting content ahead of time.

* 4E has a format change compared to 3E. The former is more readable but probably comes at the expense of space (I'm not sure if that's the case with word count--can anyone check?)

* When it comes to the print magazine, 40-60% of the retail price most likely went to distributors/retailers, so that should be taken into consideration when weighing value for money. (This is, however, muddled by the fact that DDI is an entire package.)

* How do artwork and maps factor in "value"? Some people will consider art a waste of space while others not. (IMO 3E Dragon had more wonderful art but that's personal bias, and that's not to say I don't like the art right now.)

 

[Shroomy]

I hope you removed the space taken up by the ads in the print Dragon...

In any case, I think by doing a pure content comparison, you're missing a big component of the e-magazine's allure, their full integration into the digital tools.

 

[Imaro]

I hope you removed the space taken up by the ads in the print Dragon....

Sure did, that's why the actual mag is 106 pgs while the content starts at 80 pgs.

In any case, I think by doing a pure content comparison, you're missing a big component of the e-magazine's allure, their full integration into the digital tools.

Whoah, perhaps... but then again that's subjective and not objectively measurable.

 

[Firos]

There might be a bit more at work here in terms of format.

When I collected 2E Dragon, there was a long stretch where articles brought new elements to the game that simply could not be had elsewhere. 3E, being print, continued this to some extent.

4E Dragon might be suffering because of the digital initiative; because every bit of crunch in Dragon ends up in the Compendium (I think) and Character Builder, development is (I hope) much more careful. That makes it more laborious, and makes it easier to simply use upcoming rule content as articles now for subscribers.

There is a problematic compromise here: it seems that it might be a choice between a larger number of articles and unique content, but a real danger of out and out breaking the system for a while (or not being added to the builder at all), or a larger number of articles that have no rules content, and a few more carefully designed rules articles and book previews.

I think I might prefer more articles with rules, and perhaps a longer lead time on inclusion in the character builder, perhaps even a year.

All this is if I'm right in my impressions; I haven't crunched numbers, so I can't say anything definitive. Word count seems a good comparison, with the limitation that the kinds of words are up for debate; lots of fluff vs. lots of crunch. That becomes a taste matter, but it might explain the difference I think I notice.