W'rkncacnter
Hero
eh...no, i'm with steffan here. 4e isn't the same in this way at all other then on the most absolute surface level (i.e. the names).
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Level Up (A5E) So I guess WotC thought A5E had some good ideas
- Thread starter noodohs
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Mike Myler
My best work ⬇️ tinyurl.com/mists-of-akuma-2024
After a couple more of these playtest documents go out? Not all of what we've figured out is in just that document.
dave2008
Legend
I'm not surprised.
It really doesn't.
1e had distinct spell lists for magic-users, illusionists, clerics, and druids. Paladins would cast cleric spells at higher levels, and rangers would cast both druid and magic-user spells at high levels.
2e combined them into just the Wizard list and the Priest list, and subdivided the Priest list into Spheres where each priesthood would give access to different ones, and similarly wizard spells were divided into schools. Both Clerics and Druids were types of Priests, and had access to different subsets of the Priest list. Rangers and Paladins also cast from the Priest list, but using a smaller subset.
3e was, I think, the first place where the differentiation between Arcane and Divine magic was a thing in itself – previously it had been part of the classes themselves. But 3e pointed toward bards and wizards, and said "these classes cast the same type of magic, and this type has these special rules" and then pointed at clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers and said "these classes cast another type of magic, which shares these traits." All other spellcasting classes (except artificers) used one or the other, even if they had distinct spell lists.
4e added Primal and Psionic to the list (at least in later expansions), in addition to treating Martial as a power source as well. Still distinct class lists of abilities.
5e gets a little wobbly on the topic, and pretty much does away with the distinction. It's mentioned in the classes, but there's no meaning to it.
Pathfinder 2 develops from 3.5, and doubles down on magic types, and introduces one spell list per what they call Tradition: Arcane, Divine, Occult, and Primal. They even develop some theory around it, where each tradition uses two out of four Essences that are paired as opposites: Material/Spiritual, and Mental/Vital. So Arcane is Material + Mental, Divine is Spiritual + Vital, Occult is Spiritual + Mental, and Primal is Material + Vital. All primary spellcasting classes uses one of these, each tradition has an associated skill that is used to identify and understand that kind of magic, and so on. Some classes use one of the lists plus a handful of other spells – for example, clerics use the Divine list, but also add maybe three spells depending on their deity. There are even some classes (sorcerer, witch, summoner) where different subclasses use different spell lists. For example, an Elemental sorcerer uses the Primal list, while a Demonic sorcerer uses the Divine list. Notably, it did this without going via 4e which previously had the strongest distinction between power sources.
D1D seems to move in the PF2 direction, though reading between the lines it seems there will still be more distinction between classes than in PF2.
W'rkncacnter
Hero
correction: artificers were not spellcasters in 3e. they could just treat themselves as spellcasters for certain things...also, as a result, they were, oddly enough, very charisma focused, because they relied on use magic device which was a charisma skill.
...man, 3e was weird.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I mean… the 4e designers, the PF designers, the 5e designers, the PF2 designers, the A5E designers, the 1D&D designers… they’re all just iterating on the d20 system. It’s to be expected that some -amount of convergent evolution would occur.
Aldarc
Legend
In terms of TTRPG designers, it's also quite "incestuous" around the Seattle area: WotC, Paizo, Green Ronin, Monte Cook Games, Kobold Press, etc.
Ath-kethin
Elder Thing
EDIT: Ninja'd like a billion times.
Arcana Unearthed / Arcana Evolved from Monte Cook Publishing back in the 3.X days had a unified spell list thing going on. If memory serves there were Common, Uncommon, and Exotic spells. Basically, if you were any sort of full caster you had access to the common pool. Uncommon spells were often granted to classes based on a "tag/descriptor" system similar to Level Up's alternate spell schools. A class might have access to all common spells and all uncommon spells with the "plant" tag. And exotic spells were the weird one off ones you'd find hidden in a tome somewhere with unique niche effects. In the lore, all spells started out as exotic ones that people found ways to streamline and improve the point of current magical knowledge. It's not exactly what 4e or Pathfinder or 5.5e is doing, but it's very similar.
Loved that thing, wish I had gotten a chance to actually play using it. The way Dungeons and Dragons is inspired by Lord of the Rings, Arcana Unearthed and the Diamond Throne setting was inspired by The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.
Loved that thing, wish I had gotten a chance to actually play using it. The way Dungeons and Dragons is inspired by Lord of the Rings, Arcana Unearthed and the Diamond Throne setting was inspired by The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.
Xethreau
Josh Gentry - Author, Minister in Training
A5E is almost entirely next-gen designers, few with any relationship with WotC whatsoever.
