D&D 5E Smite Nerf: Paladin Buff?

You know, a wizard with a 3rd level slot doing 5d8 (save for half) to a bunch of foes in an area is dandy, but if character in melee uses the same level slot to do 4d8 to a foe, that's too much. We can't have those melee types getting anywhere near the spell damage that a caster does. Even if they have to be nigh twice the character level to get that 3rd level slot in the first place.

Really?

I don't feel like you know what I'm saying.

The issue is that a paladin could blow through a 2nd, and 2 1st level slots in one round. This could be 2d6*+4 (12.33) +2d6 (7) from a smite spell and 3d8 (13.5) from a smite for 32.83 on one, and another 2d6*+4+2d8 (21.33) for a total of 54.13 average damage and spending half their available spell slots in one round. They can do this twice a day, significantly help alpha strike what a DM planned to be a climactic encounter, and then either suck the rest of the day (not optimal to the party) or force a rest (not optimal to the players and possibly the story).

It's the same reason that bonus action spells have a rule disallowing casting a spell with a spell slot with your action in the same round.


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Faulty assumptions.

1. You assume my bonus action is free. I had great fun with a polearm master paladin. A GWM paladin can also have bonus action taken on any crit or kill.

You're right--the fact that the OP's houserule makes smiting cost a bonus action apparently confused me into discounting bonus actions for this whole thread, but in the context we're discussing them (comparison vs. healing under PHB rules) they are still relevant.

You don't mention it, but concentration is likewise obviously still relevant.

IME these are the main things that make smiting still a useful capability to have, sometimes: it has no action economy cost and no concentration cost. When smiting is a good idea, it's usually because one or both of these factors is in play.

2. Your opportunity cost involves spreading over multiple round. But the opportunity cost of THAT is not killing it faster. If round when when closing you cast a smite, then round 2 did multiple attacks, landing that smite and also Divine Smiting, the foe would often not get another action, especially with a ranged character helping. Denying a foe an entire action because it's dead is a greater debuff then the rider on either of those two first level smites.

You're kidding, right? Wrathful Smite, if it takes effect, is a one-hit kill for most intents and purposes. If killing the T-Rex on round 3 instead of round 4 is a big deal, then obviously disabling it (disadvantage on attacks and unable to move closer to you) on round 1 is even more relevant, wouldn't you say?

In the text I quote here you seem to be talking about an extremely weak foe (it dies after two attacks, with smite spell + Divine Smite, so I'm guessing it has around 50 HP), and unless it's a Flameskull and the party is in Fireball formation, it seems unlikely that such a weak foe is going to do enough damage in one round to justify a nova to kill it quickly. More likely it does 10-20 HP to someone, which you can just heal using the spells lots which otherwise would have been wasted on smites.

In the rare situation where you really do have to kill or disable the enemy nownownow, e.g. because most of the frontline PCs are fighting wolves at the front door but Strahd just decloaked (so to speak) and started murdering PCs in the back line--well, Strahd isn't vulnerable to Wrathful Smite due to legendary resistance, so a smite nova is worth considering. But it's not necessarily a better option than e.g. grappling him, especially if he's got something like Greater Invisibility up. Your top priority in this case is to take control of the situation, which means preventing Strahd from having free access to hit-and-run on the squishies.

At your table with house rules the balance can absolutely be different. I'm talking from the perspective of the rules in the book.

I'm open to arguments as to how allowing smite-after-crit is both (1) RAI and (2) significant to game balance, such that it materially increases the overall utility of Divine Smite (and therefore the OP's proposal). I've already explained why I don't expect to see such an argument--crits are rare, and the efficiency still isn't great even though it is better than a non-crit Divine Smite.

Fair point. I'll meet you halfway - it needs to kill them without any other PCs who would be able to do so before their next action. If a PC in melee halfway across the map goes, that's not too helpful. If the life cleric is the only other one to go and can't reliably do enough damage to drop him, same thing.

But yeah, if your friend the archer can finish him off then it's a bit of a cascade effect - that's someone else not hurt but who knows if that damage in the end would be > 70 points of healing, combat is far to chaotic to tell.

Yeah.

It would entirely nerf my polearm mastery paladin. It would hurt every single paladin with extra attack who has a reason to kill something QUICKLY. Remember, it's not always about HPs - maybe they need to slay them in 3 rounds to stop a ritual, or save the commoners, or whatever.

It would have a large effect on the paladin as a class, just not a large effect under your house rules and with HPs as the sole metric.

I don't think my house rules (and player preferences) have an impact here. Is smiting-only-on-a-crit really so crucial to your polearm paladin? It's happening only once in every twenty attacks after all, which likely means you're only smiting one to three times per day (a guesstimate--you tell me if it's wrong). That works out to six three- or four-round combats, and you making three attacks during every round.

I think that if you want to argue that smiting is central to the paladin's utility, you have to be smiting so frequently that my distaste for declaring smites after critting (which isn't even a house rule per se--the only time it came up, I didn't even have to open my mouth to say "Ew", the player just voluntarily refrained) would not be relevant.
 

They can do this twice a day, significantly help alpha strike what a DM planned to be a climactic encounter, and then either suck the rest of the day (not optimal to the party) or force a rest (not optimal to the players and possibly the story).

This argument would be stronger if paladins didn't have:

(1) Decent melee attacks including Extra Attack and Improved Divine Smite
(2) A protection aura
(3) Built-in healing
(4) Channel Divinity actions on a short rest, many of which are combat-relevant
 

Paladin vs Wizard.

Level 2.
Paladin (if he hits can inflict 2d6 + 2d8 + 2d8 + mod damage to a single foe)
Wizard (can inficlit 3d6 damage to multiple enemies if they all fail saves)

That's about 28 damage for the Paladin.
That's 10.5 damage for the wizard.

Paladins in a single round to a single target have the ability to do about TRIPLE the damage of a wizards aoe spell at level 2. All the paladins resources are expended and the wizard has only used about 1/4 of his.

-----------------------------------------------
Fast forward to level 5
Wizard does 8d6
avg 28 damage

Paladin does ( 2d6 + 4 + 2d6 + 4 + 3d8 + 3d8 + 2d8 ) = 22 + 27 + 9 = 58 damage

That's about TWICE as much damage in a single round to a single foe as the wizard who now has a bigger AOE. The Paladin expended a little over half of his resources to do this. The wizard expended only 1/3 of their highest level slots (counting the spell regain mechanic they have access to).

CONCLUSION: In all likelihood the wizard in that 1 round did more than double the damage of the Paladin, just spread over multiple creatures. So no, the Paladin doesn't need nerfed.

-------------------------------------------
Just for an example:
A Paladin that can only smite once per turn at level 5 will do (2d6 + mod + 2d6 + mod + 3d8) = 25.5 average damage IF both attack land.

A wizard with fireball will do average 28 damage to each creature that fails it's save and 14 to each that passes it.

FINAL CONCLUSION: If there's a pacing issue with the Paladin blowing all his smites very fast and demanding a rest then that's a much different issue than the one mentioned in this thread that the Paladin being able to expend his Smites so fast is somehow way to strong. Paladin's multiple smites a turn are very balanced with spells like fireball. In fact after doing the analysis I may even think that the smite spells cost to many resources for the damage level they allow the Paladin to achieve.

What I'm trying to say is that a wizard using fireball will be able to out single target damage a paladin using his smites if they are limited to 1 per turn with no other changes. I honestly can't believe that's what is being advocated for in this thread!
 
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The issue is that a paladin could blow through a 2nd, and 2 1st level slots in one round. This could be 2d6*+4 (12.33) +2d6 (7) from a smite spell and 3d8 (13.5) from a smite for 32.83 on one, and another 2d6*+4+2d8 (21.33) for a total of 54.13 average damage and spending half their available spell slots in one round.

First, they can't do that on command. With a 50/50 chance of hitting both hitting in the same round only occurs about 25% of the time. And they need to do it from melee range.

Now let's look at a 5th level wizard. Using half of their total slots ... I'm sorry, half of their 3rd level slots, they cast fireball or lightning bolt and get 4 targets. 8d6 averages to 28, let's say half save. So that's 84 damage. What, four targets are too many? I think that in four rounds (remember, your scenario has the paladin hitting twice for with a 25% chance of that occuring) that's a firing solution that can come up.

Now, I fully admit that 84 isn't as cool - it's spread, it may not be on the most dangerous creature, and it's lighting or fire which may not be the best type for the foes. And yes, all of their slots is only part of a paladin's kit, they still are wearing armor and swinging a weapon while the wizard is wearing robes and using cantrips ... oh, and the rest of their spells. But it's still more then +50% over 54 damage, it's not too sucky. It would be more even with three targets, and would blwo it away if you were rushed by hordes. Let's say they are in the same neighborhood.

They can do this twice a day, significantly help alpha strike what a DM planned to be a climactic encounter, and then either suck the rest of the day (not optimal to the party) or force a rest (not optimal to the players and possibly the story).

Can you please tell me why this isn't a problem with the wizard but is with the paladin?

As a matter of fact, the wizard only has two third level slots - if using those is "either suck the rest of the day (not optimal to the party) or force a rest (not optimal to the players and possibly the story)", then the wizard is more guilty then the paladin who can still meatshield, give an aura, and do a bit of healing.

Classes designed around long-rest-recovery damage options are designed - are SPECIFICALLY designed because there were options to do it other ways - to be able to nova.
 

[MENTION=57494]Xeviat[/MENTION]

I think you seen one example of a Paladin shine and took that to mean they always shine. You then latched onto the most apparent difference you could with them and other classes (the multiple slots expended per turn) and then drew the conclusion that such a mechanic was the cause of your observation.

Yes, removing the paladin's ability to smite more than once a turn would definitely cause them not to shine in NOVA situations. However, I worry you are causing them not to shine hardly anywhere ever if you do that.

As we have proven, a fireball does significantly more group damage while only doing maybe 1/2 single target damage. In another thread we proved that a Fighter's turn 1 Nova actually slightly exceeded the Paladins and I'm sure we could find many more examples.

The point is that the Paladin's NOVA capability is balanced around the other things in the game. Another overlooked consideration of his NOVA is that it's random when he can actually use it. Yes he can probably land 1 attack and drop 2 smites on any given turn. He has a very high chance of doing that. He has a very low chance of landing his first 2 attacks of a fight to be able to NOVA when he desires. Probably around 25% chance for this to happen. It's even less of a chance to happen if we look at him literally trying to blow everything in the first 2 rounds. Basically between the balance comparisons to fireball and a fighter's superiority dice and action surge and the low probability the kind of damage we are talking about will even be able to be used turn 1 or 2 I would say your concerns don't have any merits.

Basically your concerns aren't rooted in math but a 1 time experience and 1 very good or very bad experience with something can be very hard to break even if such an experience basically took the stars aligning to pull off the first time.
 

You're right--the fact that the OP's houserule makes smiting cost a bonus action apparently confused me into discounting bonus actions for this whole thread, but in the context we're discussing them (comparison vs. healing under PHB rules) they are still relevant.

You don't mention it, but concentration is likewise obviously still relevant.

IME these are the main things that make smiting still a useful capability to have, sometimes: it has no action economy cost and no concentration cost. When smiting is a good idea, it's usually because one or both of these factors is in play.



You're kidding, right? Wrathful Smite, if it takes effect, is a one-hit kill for most intents and purposes. If killing the T-Rex on round 3 instead of round 4 is a big deal, then obviously disabling it (disadvantage on attacks and unable to move closer to you) on round 1 is even more relevant, wouldn't you say?

In the text I quote here you seem to be talking about an extremely weak foe (it dies after two attacks, with smite spell + Divine Smite, so I'm guessing it has around 50 HP), and unless it's a Flameskull and the party is in Fireball formation, it seems unlikely that such a weak foe is going to do enough damage in one round to justify a nova to kill it quickly. More likely it does 10-20 HP to someone, which you can just heal using the spells lots which otherwise would have been wasted on smites.

In the rare situation where you really do have to kill or disable the enemy nownownow, e.g. because most of the frontline PCs are fighting wolves at the front door but Strahd just decloaked (so to speak) and started murdering PCs in the back line--well, Strahd isn't vulnerable to Wrathful Smite due to legendary resistance, so a smite nova is worth considering. But it's not necessarily a better option than e.g. grappling him, especially if he's got something like Greater Invisibility up. Your top priority in this case is to take control of the situation, which means preventing Strahd from having free access to hit-and-run on the squishies.



I'm open to arguments as to how allowing smite-after-crit is both (1) RAI and (2) significant to game balance, such that it materially increases the overall utility of Divine Smite (and therefore the OP's proposal). I've already explained why I don't expect to see such an argument--crits are rare, and the efficiency still isn't great even though it is better than a non-crit Divine Smite.



Yeah.



I don't think my house rules (and player preferences) have an impact here. Is smiting-only-on-a-crit really so crucial to your polearm paladin? It's happening only once in every twenty attacks after all, which likely means you're only smiting one to three times per day (a guesstimate--you tell me if it's wrong). That works out to six three- or four-round combats, and you making three attacks during every round.

I think that if you want to argue that smiting is central to the paladin's utility, you have to be smiting so frequently that my distaste for declaring smites after critting (which isn't even a house rule per se--the only time it came up, I didn't even have to open my mouth to say "Ew", the player just voluntarily refrained) would not be relevant.

Is there something which makes being able to Wrathful Smite and smite on the same attack impossible?
 

Is there something which makes being able to Wrathful Smite and smite on the same attack impossible?

Mostly that it's kind of pointless: wrathful smite is a very effective crippling technique, to the point where the afflicted may be effectively removed from the fight. Spending extra resources to make them dead instead of useless is a bit of a waste.
 

[MENTION=57494]Xeviat[/MENTION]

I think you seen one example of a Paladin shine and took that to mean they always shine. You then latched onto the most apparent difference you could with them and other classes (the multiple slots expended per turn) and then drew the conclusion that such a mechanic was the cause of your observation.

It's not about shining. It's about being able to spend multiple spell slots in the same round.

As for the wizard vs paladin comparison, I'd be completely fine with a Damage focused wizard out damaging the paladin. The paladin has much better defenses. The paladin still beat it out in single target, and with a fireball spell that already deals single target level damage per the DMG balance.

I'm not convinced that spending 2 or 3 spell slots a round is a necessary part of the paladin kit. Am I missing something?


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It's not about shining. It's about being able to spend multiple spell slots in the same round.

As for the wizard vs paladin comparison, I'd be completely fine with a Damage focused wizard out damaging the paladin. The paladin has much better defenses. The paladin still beat it out in single target, and with a fireball spell that already deals single target level damage per the DMG balance.

I'm not convinced that spending 2 or 3 spell slots a round is a necessary part of the paladin kit. Am I missing something?


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:( Part of the point is that with your change a fireball wizard with no additional incestment will outdamage a smiting paladin (one that is only limited to one smite per turn).
 

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