Small Weapons?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Is it just me or does it seem really bizarre that goblins now deal less damage due to having small sized weapons? I mean, a goblin dealing 1d4 with a shortsword? Seems really weird...

 

[entr0py]

YA! you can prolly sympathize with the halfling rouge who rode the change from 3e to 3.5 only to be granted a minus 2 attack 'cause none of my weapons are "made for a creature my size."

If I could change one thing in 3.5, it would be leaving the weapons the same as they were.


luckily my DM was understanding enough to use the weapon equivalent variant rule from the DMG -- saving me from taking the -2 when I fell on my short sword.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

So can a goblin wield a longsword in both hands? They are armed with morningstar in the MM, which is the same size as a longsword. They also have shields so they're not wielding the ms two-handed. So technically you could have a goblin wielding 2 longswords, correct?

 

[entr0py]

So can a goblin wield a longsword in both hands? They are armed with morningstar in the MM, which is the same size as a longsword. They also have shields so they're not wielding the ms two-handed. So technically you could have a goblin wielding 2 longswords, correct?

My previous whining post aside, my answer is this: it depends.

How much time do you want to spend developing the subject goblin and are you using 3.5 weapon rules?

Assuming the answers are "alot" and "yes", then the goblin can indeed wield a small-sized Morningstar+shield or a small-sized LSword+Shield or two small-sized LSwords (with -6/-10 penalty for attacking with two weapons PHB p.160). It can wield a Medium-sized Morningstar+shield or Medium-sized LSword+shield (with a minus 2 attack penalty) -- but not two medium-sized LS -- by giving him the Monkey Grip feat CW p.103

This fellow would almost certainly be a chieftan, as i'd doubt the whole clan would take the Monkey Grip feat. Tho you could design it to be so.

 

[Geoff Watson]

So can a goblin wield a longsword in both hands? They are armed with morningstar in the MM, which is the same size as a longsword. They also have shields so they're not wielding the ms two-handed. So technically you could have a goblin wielding 2 longswords, correct?

They are weilding Small-sized Morningstars.
Sure, a goblin could wield two longswords, if they were sized appropriately.

Geoff.

 

[shilsen]

Is it just me or does it seem really bizarre that goblins now deal less damage due to having small sized weapons? I mean, a goblin dealing 1d4 with a shortsword? Seems really weird...

I don't see it. What's bizarre about doing less damage with a smaller weapon? If a human with a shortsword does less damage than with a longsword, then a goblin with a small shortsword does less damage than the human. Seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Sure it does, if you take it solely in the context of 3.5. But goblins almost always caused 1d6 damage with swords, axes, bows, whatever, in previous editions. Now in 3.5, the same weapons are causing 1d4. Sorry, but that's a joke to adventurers who used to fear facing goblins.

Actually, I'm modelling my goblins off the orcs/goblins in the Lord of the Rings: The Third Age PS2 game. So I had them with Two-Weapon Fighting and two shortswords, which did a whopping 1d4 each. I've since changed that to longsword and shortsword so at least one of them is 1d6.

 

[Quasqueton]

Sure it does, if you take it solely in the context of 3.5. But goblins almost always caused 1d6 damage with swords, axes, bows, whatever, in previous editions. Now in 3.5, the same weapons are causing 1d4. Sorry, but that's a joke to adventurers who used to fear facing goblins.

Goblins still do 1d6 damage with swords, axes, bows--- Small longsword, Small battleaxe, Small longbow (or Small morningstar as stock in the MM). Only if you have your goblins wield Small shortswords, Small handaxes, Small shortbows do they deal 1d4 damage.

[Edit: Remember, in 3.0, goblins were wielding those 1d6 shortswords and handaxes *as* longswords and battleaxes. In 3.5, goblins are wielding goblin-sized 1d6 longswords and battleaxes.]

In 3.0, there were no goblin (or halfling) longswords, battleaxes, longbows, etc. They all used human shortswords, handaxes, shortbows, etc. In 3.5, goblins (and halflings) have goblin-sized longswords (1d6), goblin-sized battleaxes (1d6), etc.

In 3.0, rogues were taught to use small and easy-to-conceal weapons, like the shortsword. Except halfling rogues, who were taught to use full-sized weapons (compared to their own size). And ogre rogues, who were taught to use ity-bity weapons (compared to their size). In 3.5, the small and easy-to-conceal weapon training matches the size of the character. Humans learn Medium-size shortswords (1d6), halflings learn Small-size shortswords (1d4), and ogres learn Large-size shortswords (1d8).

This is another example of complaining about a change without just thinking through the logic first.

Quasqueton

 

[shilsen]

Sure it does, if you take it solely in the context of 3.5. But goblins almost always caused 1d6 damage with swords, axes, bows, whatever, in previous editions. Now in 3.5, the same weapons are causing 1d4. Sorry, but that's a joke to adventurers who used to fear facing goblins.

So an average of 1 pt less damage per successful attack switches goblins from being feared to being a joke? Damn, I wish I had such precise parameters in my game

That - and the last sentence in Quasqueton's post above.

In 3.0 and 3.5, the reason that adventurers at any level will fear goblins is because of the goblin rogue's sneak attacks or the goblin fighter's feats or the goblin sorcerer's spells. Once you're above 1st level, whether your opponent's weapon does 1d4 or 1d6 is almost completely irrelevant.

 

[Quasqueton]

3.5:
Giant is 12 feet tall.
Greatsword is 12 feet long (3d6 damage).
Longsword is 6 feet long (2d6).
Shortsword is 3 feet long (1d8).
Dagger is 2 feet long (1d6).

Human is 6 feet tall.
Greatsword is 6 feet long (2d6 damage).
Longsword is 3 feet long (1d8).
Shortsword is 2 feet long (1d6).
Dagger is 1 foot long (1d4).

Halfling is 3 feet tall.
Greatsword is 3 feet long (1d8 damage).
Longsword is 2 feet long (1d6).
Shortsword is 1 foot long (1d4).
Dagger is 6 inches long (1d3).


3.0:
Giant is 12 feet tall.
Greatsword [wielded as longsword] is 6 feet long (2d6 damage).
Longsword [wielded as shortsword] is 3 feet long (1d8).
Shortsword [wielded as dagger] is 2 feet long (1d6).
Dagger is 1 foot long (can't use).
[can the giant throw the shortsword he uses like a dagger?]

Human is 6 feet tall.
Greatsword is 6 feet long (2d6 damage).
Longsword is 3 feet long (1d8).
Shortsword is 2 feet long (1d6).
Dagger is 1 foot long (1d4).

Halfling is 3 feet tall.
Greatsword is 6 feet long (can't use).
Longsword [wielded as greatsword] is 3 feet long (1d8).
Shortsword [wielded as longsword] is 2 feet long (1d6).
Dagger [wielded as shortsword] is 1 foot long (1d4).
[can the halfling throw the dagger he uses like a shortsword?]

Quasqueton