D&D 5E Skills in 5E. Do we want them?

[Elf Witch]

When I DM I tell my players up front that they have to try and role play rolling the dice is not enough in social skills. My players know that saying I talk to king here is my role is not going to cut it because I won't allow it.

It is not the fact that you can roll a skill check and not role play that has made players lazy it is DMs who allow it who have made players lazy.

There are so many ways to handle this my more confident players role play it out they actually do the speech. Depending on the speech I may not even ask for a roll.


My more shy easily tongue tied players may try and role play it out or they tell me I am going to cover these topics with the king and point out these facts. Then they roll if they roll well enough they gave a rousing speech.

Skill checks don't stop role playing any more than combat rolls stop role playing.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I love skills, and whilst 3E was a little over the top (and made some skills necessary vs. others pointless), 4E felt a little slim to me. Skill challenges didn't help, as written. I see two ways to proceed:

Math
Skills, like attacks, are based on numbers and difficulties. Complex tasks ought to be modelled as Markov chains (I did this for 4E and it worked well - limit the number of actions the PCs can take before the task is over, move on a step for a success, back (or stagnant) for a failure with narration for each step of the task). This all relies on getting the numbers right, as stats go up, +x per level bonuses come in and items get better (making it a non-linear problem to balance). If numbers are to be used, don't make things inflate much with level.

Non-math
Skills are determined by level (novice, master, etc.), not numbers. If you have a given level, you can do given things. If you're short, make a stat-roll to see if you pull it off. If you're very short of the required level, it's more difficult. Example: disarm a trap, difficulty 'master'; if you're a master in this skill, it's done. If you're only trained, make a dexterity roll and try to get 10+, if you're only a novice, get 15+. This has simplicity on it's side, but potentially loses nuance (in my example each level is a +5 bonus for instance).

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

When I DM I tell my players up front that they have to try and role play rolling the dice is not enough in social skills. My players know that saying I talk to king here is my role is not going to cut it because I won't allow it.

And I encourage it do. But I don't require it, for the above reasons. And, with my players the adage is, anything that is not banned is permitted.

If even one of them gets away without roleplaying, they will all try to get away with it. You don't know how many times I've said "Tell me the reasons I should help you" and some player stared at me for a good 5 minutes saying "Umm....I...umm....well, I can't come up with anything, but my character is very smart. He comes up with something even if I can't. I rolled a 35 for diplomacy. A 35! There's no way that fails."

I have one player who absolutely hates roleplaying more than a sentence or two with NPCs. He is the one that turned it into a joke. He just says "Come ON!", announces his 40 on his diplomacy check and watches the entire table laugh as he pulls his version of "Diplomacy". The joke being that he has so much skill that he didn't need pretty words to convince anyone, even if he got a penalty for poor roleplaying, he would get more than high enough to make any DC listed in published adventures(which we mostly played). So, the joke goes that all he has to do is yell out "Come ON!" and the NPCs will agree with him.

Another one of my players liked the joke so much, he made a character called Sancho (which is a character from the movie Orgasmo) who just says "I am Sancho" as all his diplomacy checks.

I argued a lot at first. But there's only so many times you can argue over the proper use of a diplomacy check before there are better battles to be fought.

Skill checks don't stop role playing any more than combat rolls stop role playing.

Skill checks don't STOP roleplaying, but they do hinder it. Rules CAN and do influence the "feeling" the game gives off. Just look at the number of people out there who hate 4e because it doesn't "feel" like D&D.

It's possible for people to role play even with skill checks. But my players have figured out that it isn't REQUIRED by the rules. And that I will follow the rules. So, what isn't required, isn't done.

The only way they'll stop again is if the rules don't allow them to pick up a dice as a replacement for roleplaying.

 

[Elf Witch]

And I encourage it do. But I don't require it, for the above reasons. And, with my players the adage is, anything that is not banned is permitted.

If even one of them gets away without roleplaying, they will all try to get away with it. You don't know how many times I've said "Tell me the reasons I should help you" and some player stared at me for a good 5 minutes saying "Umm....I...umm....well, I can't come up with anything, but my character is very smart. He comes up with something even if I can't. I rolled a 35 for diplomacy. A 35! There's no way that fails."

I have one player who absolutely hates roleplaying more than a sentence or two with NPCs. He is the one that turned it into a joke. He just says "Come ON!", announces his 40 on his diplomacy check and watches the entire table laugh as he pulls his version of "Diplomacy". The joke being that he has so much skill that he didn't need pretty words to convince anyone, even if he got a penalty for poor roleplaying, he would get more than high enough to make any DC listed in published adventures(which we mostly played). So, the joke goes that all he has to do is yell out "Come ON!" and the NPCs will agree with him.

Another one of my players liked the joke so much, he made a character called Sancho (which is a character from the movie Orgasmo) who just says "I am Sancho" as all his diplomacy checks.

I argued a lot at first. But there's only so many times you can argue over the proper use of a diplomacy check before there are better battles to be fought.


Skill checks don't STOP roleplaying, but they do hinder it. Rules CAN and do influence the "feeling" the game gives off. Just look at the number of people out there who hate 4e because it doesn't "feel" like D&D.

It's possible for people to role play even with skill checks. But my players have figured out that it isn't REQUIRED by the rules. And that I will follow the rules. So, what isn't required, isn't done.

The only way they'll stop again is if the rules don't allow them to pick up a dice as a replacement for roleplaying.

I can understand your frustrations I really can. It sounds to me that your players don't really want to role play all that much. I don't see how that would change just because they took skills out.

Have you tried talking to your players and telling them that you want them to role play more? If you really believe that it is the skill rolls making them not role play house rule them out of the game.

You are the DM you don't have to be a slave to the rules.

 

[DonTadow]

I like skills the way they are described by Mearls in September.

There are no skills persay. Abilities are what you roll for everything. However, certain activities receive a bonus based on , say, either feat choices or special ability choices.

Instead of class skills, classes give a set ability bonus for certain abilities. Fighters strength and constitution, wizards intelligenct etc.

 

[Wormwood]

There are no skills persay. Abilities are what you roll for everything. However, certain activities receive a bonus based on , say, either feat choices or special ability choices.

I would *love* that system. Old school yet elegant.

 

[DonTadow]

I can understand your frustrations I really can. It sounds to me that your players don't really want to role play all that much. I don't see how that would change just because they took skills out.

Have you tried talking to your players and telling them that you want them to role play more? If you really believe that it is the skill rolls making them not role play house rule them out of the game.

You are the DM you don't have to be a slave to the rules.

Yeah, you can't make someone role play if they don't want to roleplay. However, you can choose whose in your roleplaying group.

I do like the ole, do i expect someone to swing a sword analogy though, limited. I expect players to be able to come up with solutions and tactics and use thier characters as extension of that. I want social skills. I believe social skills represent how a person "comes off" not necessarily what a person says.

The problem is not someone with a high diplomacy, it's that systems allow too high skill bonuses and no system has good diplomacy rulesets. In my pathfinder game, i have a guy who gets a +15 at 4th level on diplomacy skill checks. All he's using is the core and advanced books. I pretty much canot argue the rules, just that the rules are broke.

Social skills need a set dc, which means npcs and pcs need a set check DC or defense against them. Thus I also like dfenses for each skill.

 

[Hassassin]

You are the DM you don't have to be a slave to the rules.

Or play by their rules and have the +20 diplomacy aristocrat convince them to go on quests, because "the servants are busy".

No, I don't recommend this.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Dials

I think the 5e skill system will and should have a complexity dial. In other words:

Basic: Gives the player a small bonus to all attributes when used for a skill check.
Advanced: Allows the player to choose a skill package, with a number of themed sets available.
Master: The player chooses individual skills from a huge list of specific proficiencies.

...or something like that.

 

[Viking Bastard]

I like 4e's skill system, for the most part. I can envision some tweaking, for sure--+3 instead of +5 for Training, then maybe +2 for Mastering; slightly different Skill list, etc.--but in main scope, I'm pretty happy with it.

I also like things like Perform and Craft, but I'd like to see it handled differently than the core adventuring skills.