D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Maxperson]

But to only allow certain "races" to be recognized in a "multiracial" parentage, while other "racial" mixes are erased, is even more exclusivist and in other reallife contexts, offensive.

It is misguided to only privilege Elf and Orc "races".

Every D&D "race" deserves inclusion and dignity as part of a characters mixed parentage.


The way that 2024 opens a multispecies character to any player species is the correct approach, even if only narrative.

I expect a mechanical way to represent a multispecies character will eventually become available. The main hurdle will be to maintain game balance and to avoid mechanics that enforce offputting stereotypes.

Two things.

First, all of 5e doesn't come close to including all of the D&D races. That means that you're arguing that all of the races in 5e are privileged and D&D as a whole is excluding a lot.

Second, what makes you think that all D&D races can interbreed with all other D&D races? It's very rare for different species to be able to interbreed. It's not being exclusivist to just limit it to orcs and humans and elves and humans if those are the only species that can interbreed.

 

[Yaarel]

Two things.

First, all of 5e doesn't come close to including all of the D&D races. That means that you're arguing that all of the races in 5e are privileged and D&D as a whole is excluding a lot.

Second, what makes you think that all D&D races can interbreed with all other D&D races? It's very rare for different species to be able to interbreed. It's not being exclusivist to just limit it to orcs and humans and elves and humans if those are the only species that can interbreed.

First. 5e 2024 (if continuing the UA approach) allows any species to mix with any species, because magic. The character represents this mixed parentage by appearance (players choice). Any player species is possible.

Really any species is possible in the mixture, including Dragon and the even more nonhuman, such as Plasmoid or whoever, albeit the appearance should remain coherent with the mechanics that are in play.


Second. Because magic.

For example, an Angel or a Ghost or a Fire Elemental can have a child together with a Human. Because magic. In this case, the spiritual phenomenon is altering the Human DNA via a spiritual magical influence, rather than there being any DNA that recombines with the Human DNA.

Note, in Norse traditions, Logi is a kind of jǫtunn who is literally fire. Logi manifested a human shape, and founded a prominent human family. There are reallife ancestries that claim descent from Logi, who is something like a fire elemental. In this case, a human shape includes human DNA, but it is an example of magic that allows multispecies parentage. The human Logi was supernaturally strong and supernaturally beautiful, so more than natural DNA. Generally in Norse traditions, there examples of one kind of species immigrating to become a different kind of species, such as æsir becoming humans and viceversa.

 

[Mistwell]

But to only allow certain "races" to be recognized in a "multiracial" parentage, while other "racial" mixes are erased, is even more exclusivist and in other reallife contexts, offensive.

That's fine, I don't think anyone would object to developing all the half-races. I know people miss Muls for example. Rules for developing half-races should be included. It shouldn't be "just ignore the heritage of one of your parents" if the goal is to be inclusive and non-offensive.

The way that 2024 opens a multispecies character to any player species is the correct approach, even if only narrative.

It doesn't open anything up. It specifies exclude one parent. That's a pretty offensive approach to some people who are mixed race. It's about the worst approach some could think of in terms of inclusion.

I expect a mechanical way to represent a multispecies character will eventually become available. The main hurdle will be to maintain game balance and to avoid mechanics that enforce offputting stereotypes.

They should have offered guidelines to make an type of half-race with this edition, not waited and then told people who are half race themselves that the "inclusive" approach is to ignore one of your parents and choose the other.

I honestly don't understand how you stand on an "inclusion" soap box and keep making this argument that ignoring one of your heritages is the "inclusive" approach. Ask anyone you know of mixed race if they think that is an appropriate way to view them.

 

[Maxperson]

First. 5e 2024 (if continuing the UA approach) allows any species to mix with any species, because magic. The character represents this mixed parentage by appearance (players choice). Any player species is possible.

No. Only one of the parent races is possible under that idea. Cosmetic appearance doesn't make you a new race.

Really any species is possible in the mixture, including Dragon and the even more nonhuman, such as Plasmoid or whoever, albeit the appearance should remain coherent with the mechanics that are in play.

Only if the DM is okay with you playing a pure dragon. I mean, some DMs allow that, but I wouldn't. Or do you mean Dragonborn?

Again, cosmetic differences don't make you a new race.

 

[Yaarel]

It doesn't open anything up. It specifies exclude one parent. That's a pretty offensive approach to some people who are mixed race. It's about the worst approach some could think of in terms of inclusion.

When a Gnome and a Dragonborn have kids, one sibling can be the stats of one parent, and an other sibling can be the stats of the other parent. The choice is equal opportunity − and at least in this sense fully inclusive.

They should have offered guidelines to make an type of half-race with this edition, not waited and then told people who are half race themselves that the "inclusive" approach is to ignore one of your parents and choose the other.

The amount of page count to present a system that can mix-and-match the mechanics of every player species, plus give advice for nonplayer species, might require more page count than is possible in the core Players Handbook.

Moreover, there will surely be options that are much better than other options, thus require future updates to rebalance various options. I have to admit the core rules remain more stable without species trait miscibility.

I think there is a way to present the mix system economically in the core rules, by species descriptions themselves dividing the traits into separable feats. But all of this requires serious scrutiny for balance before entering core rules.

I honestly don't understand how you stand on an "inclusion" soap box and keep making this argument that ignoring one of your heritages is the "inclusive" approach. Ask anyone you know of mixed race if they think that is an appropriate way to view them.

I suspect a system for mixing species traits will eventually happen. In the mean time, the multispecies characters are central to the official setting lore. The narrative of multispecies is alive and well and everywhere. 2024 will make the lore for other multispecies characters even more prominent within the setting lore.

Because there is almost zero loss − mechanically − by deleting 2014 "Half Elf" mechanics, I see nothing lost.

The 2014 "Half" Elf, has Charisma +2, and +1 any two, an extra language and extra two skill. 2024 players can continue to create these characters now, utilizing either Human or Elf as the basis. Players can choose +2 Charisma and +1 any, or +1 to Charisma and any tw0. (The missing extra +1 any is the opposite of a salient species-defining trait.) There is virtually zero loss. The game continues with the socalled "Half" Elf characters with moreorless the same 2014 stats.

I cant cry for the "Half" Elf. Because it is alive and well and living in 2024.



Moreover, when seriously creating a 2024 Human-Elf character, I would use either Human or Elf as the mechanical chassis. If Human I would use the Human feat to select Magic Initiate to represent the Elf parentage. If Elf I would make sure the feat is nonmagical to represent the Human parentage.

 

[Clint_L]

That's fine, I don't think anyone would object to developing all the half-races. I know people miss Muls for example. Rules for developing half-races should be included. It shouldn't be "just ignore the heritage of one of your parents" if the goal is to be inclusive and non-offensive.

Sorry - where does it say to ignore the heritage of one of your parents?

It doesn’t. All it says is to pick the mechanics from one of your parents species for game purposes. I’m pretty sure heritage has nothing to do with dark vision or a hardened shell that gives you a natural AC. Your character can choose to have Orcish resilience and still be fully in tune with their Elvish heritage all you want.

This argument that letting players choose between different game mechanics is somehow akin to forcing people to choose between IRL ethnic heritages is ridiculous. It’s really grasping at straws. And offensive to folks who actually have been forced to choose between heritages. Which is why the “Half-X” language was removed to begin with.

 

[Yaarel]

Only if the DM is okay with you playing a pure dragon. I mean, some DMs allow that, but I wouldn't. Or do you mean Dragonborn?

Again, cosmetic differences don't make you a new race.

I mean, a character can have both a Gold Dragon and a Human as parents. To represent the character concept, the player might want to use the Dragonborn species for its mechanics. The character might look fully Dragon or fully Human! Or for more subtle draconic features, choose the Human species mechanics, and use the Human feat to pick a trait that connotes draconic ancestry (players choice). Snake eyes and reptilian skin is plenty for the narrative. A Dragon Sorcerer class can represent tapping into the abilities of the Dragon parent.

By putting the mechanics on the shelf until later, the narrative possibilities for a multispecies character are virtually unlimited − and official.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, a character can have both a Gold Dragon and a Human as parents.

Yes, but he can't be half dragon and half human. He can only be dragon or human with a few cosmetic changes. If cosmetic changes create a new race, then blond humans are a different race than black haired humans and once you throw in all the other cosmetics, there are 10s of thousands of different races of human.

Cosmetics do not create a new race.

To represent the character concept, the player might want to use the Dragonborn species for its mechanics. The character might look fully Dragon or fully Human! Or for more subtle draconic features, choose the Human species mechanics, and use the Human feat to pick a trait that connotes draconic ancestry (players choice). Snake eyes and reptilian skin is plenty for the narrative. A Dragon Sorcerer class can represent tapping into the abilities of the Dragon parent.

I get what they are saying. They are saying cosmetic differences make a new race. As I point out above, that's a very dangerous position to take. Think of how many throughout history have used that idea to inflict horrors on others.

By putting the mechanics on the shelf until later, the narrative possibilities for a multispecies character are virtually unlimited − and official.

I mean, it's literally the opposite of unlimited. You are either the mother or the father since cosmetics don't create a new race.

 

[Yaarel]

Yes, but he can't be half dragon and half human. He can only be dragon or human with a few cosmetic changes. If cosmetic changes create a new race, then blond humans are a different race than black haired humans and once you throw in all the other cosmetics, there are 10s of thousands of different races of human.

To me it makes sense, that magical traits happen while leveling.

For example, in Norse texts, two trǫll (whether risar or þursar or mixed) can have the same two parents. One sibling might be normal human size, shy of two meters, while an other is over ten meters. The difference mainly depends on which natural feature is manifesting the quasihuman shape, such as a mountain stream tending to take a human size shape while a tall mountain cliff might be very tall. The shape is a product of magic − and the more powerful a mage is, the more wondrous a manifest shape might become − such as extreme height.

So in D&D, if a playable Giant character starts off with normal Human size at level 1, but then gains a size category at levels 8 to Large and 16 to Huge, that is fine.


Similarly, the images from various runestones depict the lifecycle of a dreki (dragon). It is born as a normal snake, the european adder. But soon the newborns sprout horns (where the v-shape pattern on the head of the adder becomes actual v-shaped horns.) When larger the adolescents gain arms with hands, prehensile eagle claws. The adult females then have their own brood of adders. Typically the drekar never have wings, but there are known examples of very ancient individuals who do form wings (eagle wings), and depictions of them. Presumably, the dreki has shed its skin between each shift in shape.

So in D&D, if a playable Dragon character starts of wingless at level 1, but gains wings at level 8, that is fine by me. It is precisely the increase in magical competence that allows the more powerful form to happen.


The only nonmagical species is the Human. Everyone else has magical traits − even Orc darkvision. Even Halfling "luck" is magical. Some Humans are magically Lucky, but most arent.

Cosmetics do not create a new race.

What matters most is the character concept. An auxiliary concern is mechanical balance. The least important consideration is trying to enforce "racism" mechanically.

There are many different kinds of "elf". The Norse texts across passing mentions pieces together a fairly detailed concept of an "elf" that I want to make sure is doable in D&D. But Scotland witchtrial records present a fairly detailed concept of an "elf" that differs in important ways that I want to make sure is doable in D&D. Meanwhile Tolkien invented his own fictional elves. D&D can do these too.

The mechanics are fluid. An essentialist, historically racist, approach to mechanics is often wrongminded for magical creatures, and can interfere with reallife cultural concepts.

What matters is the character concept − then D&D 2024 offers several ways to express it.


Consider the Norse trǫll. The risar and þursar can be extremely differnt from each other, but they are all the same "species" kyn, and sometimes even members of the same family.

Magical traits are inherently individualistic and fluid, and nonconducive to "races".

I get what they are saying. They are saying cosmetic differences make a new race. As I point out above, that's a very dangerous position to take. Think of how many throughout history have used that idea to inflict horrors on others.

I mean, it's literally the opposite of unlimited. You are either the mother or the father since cosmetics don't create a new race.

I am talking about "species" of magical beings.

DNA makes sense for the Human species. It makes less sense for an ethereal Fey spirit, or astral Celestial construct.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I was agreeing with you until you needed to prove yourself right. Now I'm fully willing to accept half-ancestry feats.

Sometimes you need to quit while you're ahead.

So now you're standing on principle!