James McMurray
First Post
A shield does not do "everything the sword does plus doubles the damage whenever you happen to get in a charge". A shield does less damage than a Longsword. A shield has a smaller threat range.
Shield Charge equivalent?
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Mr.Binx
First Post
Ki Ryn said:
Well, if you're going to get loopy and keep this issue on the powergaming side, since everyone in your army can obviously cast spells to enhance their shield I would have them all use Flamestrike and Fireballs to blanket that poor 1/2 CR orcish army and wipe them all out in one round.
Magus Coeruleus
Explorer
So in this battle against the orcish hordes, you and all 100 of your friends have the prerequisite 13+ strength and 3 feats to spare (Power Attack >> Improved Shield Bash >> Shield Charge)? Please, if that's what you're starting with you could pick many other feats that would let you kick butt in a variety of ways. For instance, why not wield sword and shield and take Weapon Focus (sword), Power Attack, and Cleave? Or drop Power Attack (no need for a 13+ Str anymore) and take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use a bastard sword with a shield.
Or, kill those orcs before they even close for melee (Point Blank Shot >> Far Shot). You don't even need an ability prereq or a PC class for that, just 1st level humans of any sort. If you'll let them have 13 Dex instead of Str, and keep all three of the feats you'd need for Shield Charge, then you can add Rapid Shot and give them two shots per round at a far range until the orcs close.
I think it's abundantly clear that Shield Charge is not too powerful for the cost in ability and feat prerequisites.
Or, kill those orcs before they even close for melee (Point Blank Shot >> Far Shot). You don't even need an ability prereq or a PC class for that, just 1st level humans of any sort. If you'll let them have 13 Dex instead of Str, and keep all three of the feats you'd need for Shield Charge, then you can add Rapid Shot and give them two shots per round at a far range until the orcs close.
I think it's abundantly clear that Shield Charge is not too powerful for the cost in ability and feat prerequisites.
0-hr
Starship Cartographer
Third level fighters can cast neither flame strike, nor fireball. The crit range and larger damage die might outweigh the charge opportunities. Still, it would be a strange world where you could tell the priests and adventurer's by the wooden shields on either arm (Spikes even the crit range and greatly increases the shield damage). Perhaps they just never considered the interaction of that spell with the feat, even though they are in the same book.
Mr.Binx
First Post
Well, I was told I was standing on a field of battle. I was not told I was a third level fighter. You're required to be a 5th level cleric in order to cast Spikes. You would have to cast it 202 times in order to affect 101 duel-wielding warriors. If a 5th level wizard had the ability to cast 202 3rd level spells I do believe that 202 fireballs would make short work of the orc horde. If you blow enough experience to make enough wands so you can cast this in one day, you could at least make one of the two weapons a club instead of shield to make it believable for your DM's sake. 
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It sounds like the easy solution is not to let the effects stack.
Need an in-game explanation? Well, the spikes grow out of the shield in random directions. They make it usable as a good weapon, but are not placed well enough to take the brunt of a Shield Charge. You can either drive your full weight into the enemy (getting double your regular bash damage), or hit him with the spikes (doing Spikes damage), but not both at the same time.
Need an in-game explanation? Well, the spikes grow out of the shield in random directions. They make it usable as a good weapon, but are not placed well enough to take the brunt of a Shield Charge. You can either drive your full weight into the enemy (getting double your regular bash damage), or hit him with the spikes (doing Spikes damage), but not both at the same time.
kreynolds
First Post
Ki Ryn said:
The sword. Besides, imagine how utterly retarded and rediculous it would look to have 5,000 orcs and 5,000 humans charging into the middle of the battlefield and slaming into each other, only to run back and do it again, and again, and again, and again, like some great rolling sea of pitifully ignorant creatures that are merely taking up space and breathing up all the oxygen, and they do all this crap just so that they can use the Charge action with their shields. Stupid.
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Mr.Binx
First Post
Aye, if I were roleplaying I would indeed think that a sword would do more damage to my opponent than a shield with some sharp sticks poking out of it. If I was a fighter, what are the chances that I've seen a shield do more harm than the bastard swords I've seen lop of limbs and cleave through shoulders during mass battle?
reapersaurus
Explorer
Ki Ryn - what's your problem with this weapon?
You can't just say "because it allows double damage, therefore it's obviously superior to everything else" and be treated seriously.
Compare it to the 'broken' ability to shoot 2 arrows a round at low level. These 2 arrows could easily do 2d8+8 damage with an 18 STR.
Compare to a Keen Scimitar.
Compare to a spiked chain with Cleave.
Shield Charge has a lot of prereqs.
And most important, it really only allows for one attack to have double damage. (2d6+8 with 18 STR)
If you think that rearranges the reality of combat in your world, you are really looking at it the wrong way, I hypothesize.
You can't just say "because it allows double damage, therefore it's obviously superior to everything else" and be treated seriously.
Compare it to the 'broken' ability to shoot 2 arrows a round at low level. These 2 arrows could easily do 2d8+8 damage with an 18 STR.
Compare to a Keen Scimitar.
Compare to a spiked chain with Cleave.
Shield Charge has a lot of prereqs.
And most important, it really only allows for one attack to have double damage. (2d6+8 with 18 STR)
If you think that rearranges the reality of combat in your world, you are really looking at it the wrong way, I hypothesize.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
The real danger of a shield charge comes in later levels, when you can afford magic items like Rhino's Hide (another x2 damage on a charge, which combines for X3 total damage when used with shield charge), and feats like power lunge (double str. damage during a charge).
I seem to recall that you cannot both spring attack and charge at the same time. But, if I am mistaken, and you can do that, I think it would be a devistating tactic (unless you are running into an NPC set with a spear, or a readied attack). If you can move fast, and spring attack, then you can charge every single round, and get far enough away that your opponant will usually not get to you to retaliate.
An interesting (though silly) progression if such were possible would include: CG Human ftr 1 (Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge), ftr 2 (Dodge), Clr 1 (Celerity Domain = +10 move, Mobility, Turn Undead, 0 & 1st lev spells), Barb 1 (+10 move, Rage), Infintrator 1 (+10 move, sneak attack +1d6), Rog 1 (Spring Attack, sneak attack +1d6); buy Rhino Hide armor.
So at level 6, you have a move of 60. You rage, charge in 30', smash with your spiked shield at x3 damage and possibly knocking your target back 5' and possibly doing +2d6 sneak attack damage, then you move back 30', hopefully behind cover. Repeat, though probably not with the sneak attack damage.
In later levels I can see Power Lunge, Sprint, and Divine Shield being helpful, along with boots of striding and springing and a wand of Spikes.
Of course, this would be boring after a short period of time, since you do one thing very well. And, I seriously doubt you can charge and spring attack at the same time. But an interesting thought
I seem to recall that you cannot both spring attack and charge at the same time. But, if I am mistaken, and you can do that, I think it would be a devistating tactic (unless you are running into an NPC set with a spear, or a readied attack). If you can move fast, and spring attack, then you can charge every single round, and get far enough away that your opponant will usually not get to you to retaliate.
An interesting (though silly) progression if such were possible would include: CG Human ftr 1 (Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge), ftr 2 (Dodge), Clr 1 (Celerity Domain = +10 move, Mobility, Turn Undead, 0 & 1st lev spells), Barb 1 (+10 move, Rage), Infintrator 1 (+10 move, sneak attack +1d6), Rog 1 (Spring Attack, sneak attack +1d6); buy Rhino Hide armor.
So at level 6, you have a move of 60. You rage, charge in 30', smash with your spiked shield at x3 damage and possibly knocking your target back 5' and possibly doing +2d6 sneak attack damage, then you move back 30', hopefully behind cover. Repeat, though probably not with the sneak attack damage.
In later levels I can see Power Lunge, Sprint, and Divine Shield being helpful, along with boots of striding and springing and a wand of Spikes.
Of course, this would be boring after a short period of time, since you do one thing very well. And, I seriously doubt you can charge and spring attack at the same time. But an interesting thought
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