Savage Worlds vs DnD 5e

[grimmgoose]

I love Savage Worlds; it is bar-none the GM-friendliest system out there that I have played. Everything flows so smoothly, the rules all make sense and fit within the core mechanic, and the game is built to create hype around the table.

It will be jarring come from a strict D&D style of play, though. For example, it is swingy, and that is intentional. Every attack roll can be deadly; your Legendary Paladin can be struck down by a goblin with a spear. It's unlikely, but intentional.

For the GM, it's important to know that tension is directly in your hands. In 5E, the DM indirectly controls tension through resource management (ie, limiting rests). Players often fight this, because they, in some cases, have control (DM-depending) on when they rest (teleports, Tiny Huts, etc.)

In Savage Worlds, tension comes from how many Bennies (think rerolls) that the players have. You can spend a benny to reroll, or to "Soak" (prevent damage). Because of this, the DM has a greater deal of control over the tension of a session:

• If you want your players to feel like superheroes, hand those Bennies out like candy
• If you're at the end of the session, and you want them to sweat, turn that Benny spigot off.

Savage Worlds also has more options that just combat. Pretty much everything in 5E revolves around its combat engine. Savage Worlds, on the other hand, has multiple subsystems that are honestly the best part about the game. Nothing hypes up my table like a Dramatic Task.

 

[grimmgoose]

a surprisingly slower Initiative system than D&D

I gotta completely disagree with this. In Savage Worlds, you just throw cards down at people. Highest card goes first, redraw every round, shuffle when there is a Joker. Assuming you aren't having to open up a pack when initiative is drawn, it is significantly faster than going:

"Alright, the goblins attack! Everybody roll initiative...Okay, who got higher than 20? Nobody...okay, 15 - 20? 10 - 15? 5 - 10?" etc. In SW, just throw cards at people, and it is clearly visible who is going next.

Plus, the initiative system is part of the hype! I can't tell you how many players have said, "I got a Nat 20 on initiative! Does that get me anything?" Only to hear, "nope, sorry." Amplify that when the Wizard gets a Nat 20, and the Rogue still gets to go before them

In SW, if you get a Joker, that's a gamechanger. You get a +2 to anything you want to do that round, everybody gets a Benny, and you can go whenever you want - including interrupting somebody else!

It's just so good.

(I will note that, SW does have it's problems. It can be modifier-heavy, and if you give into the initial desire to have higher Toughness bad guys, there can be a lot of whiff-ping. But it's still the system I go to for 95% of all my games.)

 

[Retreater]

Oh no. No. No. That card initiative is so time consuming.
First, let's look at D&D. I've got a very simple Initiative system I've been using for decades, and it takes seconds. Numbers 1-20+ along the top of my DM screen. Have the players' names on clothespins. Ask the players from left to right what's their Initiative and put the name on the number. Everyone can clearly see the order. If someone wants to delay, they can move their pin back. It takes less than 30 seconds and lasts for the duration of the combat.
Compare that to the SW cards system. First, it changes every round. So that takes time. If you pull a Joker, you've got to reshuffle the deck, which takes time. Then you've got to count down the numbers from Ace to One - and invariably you forget someone because someone forgot to speak up. And they forget to turn in their cards. Or they argue about the suit order.
And then you have edges that let you draw multiple cards and select which you want. Or go whenever you want if you have a Joker. Or spend a Benny for another card. And it changes every round, so players can't really find a pacing or plan actions.
It's really a dreadful system for something that should take seconds and then let the action be the focus.

 

[MGibster]

I've heard criticisms of the card system for initiative being slow but I've never experienced that particular problem in the real world. In my experience, initiative goes rather quickly in Savage Worlds and not knowing the exact order each and every round is kind of exciting. While SW is pretty much my go to games, there are tons of criticisms of the system I agree with, but this one just never made any sense to me.

 

[Retreater]

While SW is pretty much my go to games, there are tons of criticisms of the system I agree with, but this one just never made any sense to me.

So how many players do you have in SW? I run 7-8 players. Plus wildcards and groups of extras. That's a lot of cards to shuffle and pass out every round.
It's not a good system for us ... the initiative or rules mechanics in general. It ended up being the height of frustration and an exhausting experience.

 

[MGibster]

So how many players do you have in SW? I run 7-8 players. Plus wildcards and groups of extras. That's a lot of cards to shuffle and pass out every round.

I typically run with 5-6 players and of course I have NPC wildcards and groups as well. I also keep two decks of cards handy and have one of the players shuffle for me when the joker is drawn. It's just literally never been a problem in any group I've played in.

It's not a good system for us ... the initiative or rules mechanics in general. It ended up being the height of frustration and an exhausting experience.

You tried it and you don't like it. That's fair. You keep on rockin' in the free world with your bad self. As long as you guys are playing something you like you're doing it right.

 

[aramis erak]

This is exactly the kind of information that I'm looking for. Thanks a lot for such a thorough answer.

I am sure I will have a lot of questions for you if you don't mind answering.

The flatter power curve is definitely a big plus in my book. I like competent heroes, but I don't want to deal with powers that can just nullify entire challenges at almost no cost.

There's literally no ability that can't be nerfed by good rules... damage rolls can open end, too.

Another thing that bothers me a bit in 5e is how long the combats feel sometimes. How would you say combat length in a Savage Worlds encounter is compared to 5e.

The length largely matters by average damage vs average toughness (including armor); if they're close, expect a slog until someone open-ends a damage roll.

How does mosters feel to run compared to 5e?

Much simpler, at least for core and deadlands. Not many have more than 3 special abilities, and they're mechanically pretty consistent.
GIven that many are also minions, not wildcards...

If a minion has a toughness higher than the party's average damage, it's only one lucky hit needed. If a wildcard does, it requires 3 lucky hits...
If a minion has a toughness significantly lower than the party's average damage, they are one-to-two hits... not a big threat ... and a dedicated combatant can mow them down. Meanwhile, a wildcard of that level of toughness is still a reasonable threat, as it takes 3 hits to put them down, AND there's a possibility to have them healed in combat and pop back up.

The most common result in combat is suppression; if you don't gang up your minions on specific PCs, they're going to be of limited use. (second suppression is a wound).

Likewise, if PCs don't concentrate fire on equal or better toughness foes, it can slog ... Hit, suppress; their turn recovers and may act, hit them again, suppress, etc. Not all of my players grasped this on their own.

It's well suited to minis on ungridded maps, and uses a default assumption of 1" = 6' or 1"=2m. A little sloppy, but works well. I instead used 3/4" = 6', because of space issues.

I'll note that I had a 20 mook & 1 wildcard vs 6 PCs fight, and it took less than an hour. The pacing was far faster than D&D, and the needing to listen for one's initiative helps with downtime engagement.

 

[aramis erak]

I've heard criticisms of the card system for initiative being slow but I've never experienced that particular problem in the real world. In my experience, initiative goes rather quickly in Savage Worlds and not knowing the exact order each and every round is kind of exciting. While SW is pretty much my go to games, there are tons of criticisms of the system I agree with, but this one just never made any sense to me.

The speed issues arise in specific circumstances - one of which is players seated around the living room, rather than all at the table.
Another is when players can't pay attention; since cards are not flipped until your initaitive is called, others can't even prompt you.

I don't find it particularly fast; popcorn initiative as used in 2d20, Cortex Plus/Prime, or Sentinel Comics is faster... but is also a very different kind of tool.
It's not as slow as some - WEG d6 SW 1e, for example.

 

[thullgrim]

One of my favorite elements of playing Savage Worlds in person is the various tactile things at the table. Cards, Bennie’s, tokens, you get to use all your dice (yes even a d20 rarely). I like having that stuff in my hands to feel while we play. I know it sounds weird. Don’t judge me.

 

[AK81]

One of the things I really like about 5e is how the system helps in telling long form stories together. I think this is because of the leveling system, and probably also because of the relative safety of the characters. This makes it so that the players can spend a long time with their characters, and also really invest in them, knowing that they will probably see the end of their character arc.

How does Savage Worlds work for long campaigns, and deep character story arcs and character leveling?