D&D 5E Rogue's Cunning Action to Hide: In Combat??

[Lyxen]

Barring any distractions, being clearly seen makes it impossible to hide just as much in combat than out of combat so it's not any harder. In fact it could be even easier in combat as you have more chances to be distracted!

Yes and no, as you are also more focussed during combat. Actually, the game makes the assumption that, if anything, you are very alert during combat: "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around,..."

Anyway, as most of the discussions around stealth, there cannot be any definitive ruling, it depends too much on the situation. This is what JC clearly and rightly points out in the podcast on stealth "This more than almost any other part of the game, is going to rely on the Dungeon Master."

People looking for a single, clear ruling like "you can hide" in combat or you "cannot hide in combat" are going to be disappointed. It's as simple and complex as the first sentence on hiding "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."

So if the DM decides that it's not possible to hide in combat, here you are, you can't, at that table for that particular game.

Personally, I allow it, I just play my characters and adversaries in a manner befitting their experience and intelligence. So yes, a guard might be surprised by a halfling hiding behind his half-orc friend the first time, but unless he is a complete idiot, he will not necessarily be fooled a second time when there is nowhere else for the halfling to hide. It's all circumstantial, even more than most areas of the game.

 

[turnip_farmer]

Apologies if I've overlooked it, but there's one thing I didn't see anyone bring up in support of the fact that the intention of the rules is for rogues to be able to pop out of hiding to get their sneak attack, then use their bonus section to pop back into hiding

If you leaf through your Monster Manual and look at the big, scary solo monsters, you may notice that several of them can make a perception check as a legendary action. What's the purpose of that if not to give the big baddy a chance to keep track of the slippery little rogue bugger that keeps disappearing behind the piles of rocks?

 

[Plaguescarred]

"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."

So if the DM decides that it's not possible to hide in combat, here you are, you can't, at that table for that particular game.

I see the first sentence as for when the rules don't cover it. You can normally try to hide when unseen and being in combat is not a factor preventing you from hiding. For exemple, the rules specifically say "An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide."

The Action rules themselves say "When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here - Hide"

The Dev make it very clear that you can hide in combat as well


A DM can certainly houserule Stealth at his table, like anything elses. But the rules themselves allow hide in combat is the point to remember.

 

[Lyxen]

Apologies if I've overlooked it, but there's one thing I didn't see anyone bring up in support of the fact that the intention of the rules is for rogues to be able to pop out of hiding to get their sneak attack, then use their bonus section to pop back into hiding

I don't think it's the "intention" of the rules. The intention of Cunning Action is simply to give a rogue more options during combat, that's all, and it can sometimes be used the way you describe, but not necessarily.

Any rogue at our tables that tries to pop in and out of hiding at the same general place will quickly get disadvantage on his stealth check and the adversaries will get advantage on their perception to spot where he is trying to hide, at the very least.

If you leaf through your Monster Manual and look at the big, scary solo monsters, you may notice that several of them can make a perception check as a legendary action. What's the purpose of that if not to give the big baddy a chance to keep track of the slippery little rogue bugger that keeps disappearing behind the piles of rocks?

This is a very faint reason for deciding "the intention" of the game. There might be many reasons to make a perception check, like finding invisible adversaries who might or might not be rogues.

 

[Nefermandias]

I see the first sentence as for when the rules don't cover it. You can normally try to hide when unseen and being in combat is not a factor preventing you from hiding. For exemple, the rules specifically say "An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide."

The Action rules themselves say "When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here - Hide"

The Dev make it very clear that you can hide in combat as well


A DM can certainly houserule Stealth at his table, like anything elses. But the rules themselves allow hide in combat is the point to remember.

Damn right.
Hide is one of the combat actions available in the PHB. People just like to make things unnecessarily complicated.

 

[Lyxen]

I see the first sentence as for when the rules don't cover it. You can normally try to hide when unseen and being in combat is not a factor preventing you from hiding. For exemple, the rules specifically say "An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide."

And this is obviously not true, because (as a simple example), it is contradicted by "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly" and "A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects" so an invisible creature cannot try to hide from a creature with truesight if there are no obstacles.

Again, all of this is circumstantial, there is no absolute, and it's all summarised in "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding".

The Action rules themselves say "When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here - Hide"

The Dev make it very clear that you can hide in combat as well

And the same Dev also made it very clear all over the rules:

• "The DM always has the final say on rules questions."
• "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding".
• "This more than almost any other part of the game, is going to rely on the Dungeon Master."
• "Which can mean there are cases where the DM might decide no rolls are even necessary."

A DM can certainly houserule Stealth at his table, like anything elses. But the rules themselves allow hide in combat is the point to remember.

It's not even a question of house rules. Depending on the combat and the circumstances, some actions might be available or not. Hide might simply not be available because there are no hiding places, because the foes have incredible supernatural senses, etc.

What is true is that the rules themselves do provide the mechanism for hiding in combat, but whether these can be applied or not totally depend on the DM.

 

[turnip_farmer]

I don't think it's the "intention" of the rules. The intention of Cunning Action is simply to give a rogue more options during combat, that's all, and it can sometimes be used the way you describe, but not necessarily.

Any rogue at our tables that tries to pop in and out of hiding at the same general place will quickly get disadvantage on his stealth check and the adversaries will get advantage on their perception to spot where he is trying to hide, at the very least.

Sure, that makes sense. A lot's going to come down to the battlefield. If there's only one thing to hide behind in a featureless room, it stretches credulity for rogue to play peekaboo behind it and somehow be successfully hidden. But a lot of the environments I run fights in are more interesting. Rubble strewn everywhere, dark sides to the cavern, trees and thick bushes, barrels and crates all round the warehouse. Lots of battlefields allow the strategy and ducking behind cover and moving without the enemy seeing where you went (depending on what you roll on your stealth check, of course).

That's where the whole 'DM deciding when it's appropriate bit comes in'.

This is a very faint reason for deciding "the intention" of the game. There might be many reasons to make a perception check, like finding invisible adversaries who might or might not be rogues.

I'm no psychic, but the fact that it's such a common legendary action makes me suspect it was intended to address a common player tactic.

 

[Plaguescarred]

What is true is that the rules themselves do provide the mechanism for hiding in combat, but whether these can be applied or not totally depend on the DM.

Exception making stealth undoable can occur, but these would be exception. The point is the rules make it clear you can hide in combat as a general rule. Simply being in combat should not be a valid reason to invalidate the possibility to hide in combat.

So when you say "People looking for a single, clear ruling like "you can hide" in combat or you "cannot hide in combat" are going to be disappointed." the rules says the former, and not the latter. But they also say DM decides.

So you can hide in combat when eligible, unless the DM says otherwise would be the best way to summarise it.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Depending on the combat and the circumstances, some actions might be available or not. Hide might simply not be available because there are no hiding places, because the foes have incredible supernatural senses, etc.

Having no hiding place or facing foes that have incredible senses will prevent Stealth, wether in combat or not. Being in combat would not be the factor reason in itself. Hence why i say simply being in combat should not be a valid reason to invalidate the possibility to hide in combat. Other circumstances may do, and would most likely result just as well if you were not in combat.

 

[NotAYakk]

A sensible set of simple hiding rules:

1. You can take the hide action (or bonus) basically whenever, but it only works on foes you have total cover/concealment from.

2. If you attack while hidden, or when totally concealed and you can see your target*, you have advantage on that attack roll.

3. "Fool me twice": If you try to hide in the same spot as you just attacked from, and attack from there again, you do not get advantage on the attack roll. You can duck behind a door, hide, then attack once.

4. You can charge from hiding against an engaged or similarly distracted foe. Make a stealth check with disadvantage against their passive perception to keep advantage on the attack. "Fool me twice" applies; switch up your tricks.

*: Two people fighting in complete darkness have disadvantage, it doesn't cancel out like in RAW.