Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[Maxperson]

Didn't glean any insight from this article (I've gotten far more in this thread). He seems to confuse bad writing with his not personally liking the choices made by the creators. Anytime a reviewer starts going on at length about how they could have done better, I take their critique with a massive grain of salt. It's quite easy to write a paragraph or two outlining a 'better' story idea, and quite difficult to flesh that out into 40 episodes of dramatic storytelling that engages tens of millions of people.

Oh, yeah. I completely ignored his, "I could do it better thing." Didn't even look at it.

I was talking about his issues with the writing, like having 100 horses on a small ship, charging over a large land mass very quickly, everything being super close together despite being on a large land mass, etc. He points out a ton of real flaws in the writing, even if he is over the top with his rhetoric.

Honestly, his critique of the coincidences at the start of the story shows that the reviewer doesn't understand storytelling at a basic level. Coincidence is often (maybe almost always) what starts a story. No one complains that the droids ended up at Luke's farm, or that Obi-wan happened to be wandering the desert when Luke was attacked by sand people. And that's because those are the events that set the story in motion.

No. That's because it was one coincidence. Not three of them simultaneous with a stupid decisions that Galadriel would never have made. If Luke had gotten the droids, turned around and saw Leia running out of gas and landing at the farm, and then had Han solo stop for directions to Jaba's place all at the same time that Ben decides that now is the moment to teach Luke how to be a jedi at the farm, it would stretch "coincidence" to the breaking point.

Some coincidence is fine. The level of it at that moment in the ocean combined with her decision is just bad writing. The writers should have just made it a dark and stormy night while they were at it.

Sauron hiding his identity from Galadriel and the audience makes sense for him as a deceiver.

Yes, but remember, she, Gil-Galad and Elrond all mistrusted Annatar from the get go. Elf Lords(and ladies) are very hard to deceive since they too have supernatural powers and are on par with some of the maia.

The Stranger's identity being a mystery makes sense because he doesn't know who he is.

The article writer didn't dispute that. It was the length of time that the Stranger was kept in the mystery box that was lame and bad writing. Some mystery is fine.

A bad mystery box typically doesn't have an answer to what's inside when it is conceived or is only important to the audience, and is put in only to invite speculation.

It's also bad if it is maintained overly long just to keep a mystery. Who the Stranger was dragged on waaaaay too long. And we still don't know for sure!

 

[Hriston]

(And we can also assume that the Meneltarma was pretty damn tall.)

Just wanted to return to this with some geographical nerdism. The Josephine Seamount rises to a height of nearly three miles above the nearby Horseshoe Abyssal Plain, so supposing the plain was at the level of the continental shelf before the Fall of Númenor, the Meneltarma would have had about the same elevation above sea level as the peak of Mont Blanc in the Alps (Misty Mountains).

 

[Garthanos]

Anyhow, just want to say that I've been enjoying the discussion in this thread. As a non Tolkien reader, much of the discussion has served to illuminate my feelings on the story, which, while I enjoy, I can also understand how some may not, given the changes it has made to the source material.

I am a far more casual reader of the books than many here but I too have been enjoying reading the conversation...

 

[OB1]

I was talking about his issues with the writing, like having 100 horses on a small ship, charging over a large land mass very quickly, everything being super close together despite being on a large land mass, etc. He points out a ton of real flaws in the writing, even if he is over the top with his rhetoric.

Maybe I am misremembering, but after the big battle with the horses, didn't they go over a nearby hill and see the boats anchored in a river? I took that as they had sailed the boats up-river to be closer to the southlands. Such a thing was seen in RotK. The number of horses on those ships I don't have an answer for, but if anything, that's a production/budget issue rather than a writing issue. I'm willing to overlook that as 'movie-magic'. Fair if some don't.

No. That's because it was one coincidence. Not three of them simultaneous with a stupid decisions that Galadriel would never have made. If Luke had gotten the droids, turned around and saw Leia running out of gas and landing at the farm, and then had Han solo stop for directions to Jaba's place all at the same time that Ben decides that now is the moment to teach Luke how to be a jedi at the farm, it would stretch "coincidence" to the breaking point.

Some coincidence is fine. The level of it at that moment in the ocean combined with her decision is just bad writing. The writers should have just made it a dark and stormy night while they were at it.

Well, in Star Wars it was 3 in pretty quick succession. Droids end up at Luke's farm, and they happen to need a translator and an astro-mech. The first astro-mech that Lars picks happens to have a bad motivator. Ben happens to be wandering nearby when Sandpeople attack Luke.

For the RoP sequence, we have Galadriel being 'rescued' by Sauron (which given the end of the season, seems very likely was not a coincidence), getting attacked by the sea monster (again, may not have been a coincidence) and being found by Numenorians in the ocean (we don't know how long they were at sea, could have been quite a while).

As for Galadriel's decision to jump ship, we see characters in LotR do all kinds of out of character things when tempted by the One Ring. The One Ring is what Sauron poured his "malice, cruelty, and his will to dominate all life". That sounds like abilities Sauron has intrinsically, and that his creation of the Ring amplified (would love to understand more from you on how that idea fits in with Tolkien's writing on the matter). So perhaps what the series is showing us is that Galadriel's obsession with hunting Sauron isn't just something from within her, but an effect upon her from Sauron, much in the same way the Ring drives people. The Ring is Sauron. That Galadriel doesn't tell everyone at the end of the season about what she discovered could also be much in the same vein here. Just because we haven't seen all of Sauron's plans laid out yet doesn't mean they aren't behind the story we're watching, effecting it.

The article writer didn't dispute that. It was the length of time that the Stranger was kept in the mystery box that was lame and bad writing. Some mystery is fine.
It's also bad if it is maintained overly long just to keep a mystery. Who the Stranger was dragged on waaaaay too long. And we still don't know for sure!

Is it important to Nori that the Stranger is Gandalf (or some other wizard)? It's not, because she's meeting him for the first time, and that name wouldn't change the way she feels about him. Bad writing would have been for him to say, "I'm Gandalf" like it means something to her (again, see Khan in ST: Into Darkness). If you were watching this series without any knowledge previous works, the name wouldn't mean anything to you either. What's important is what the writers actually show, that Nori doesn't know if she can trust this Stranger or not through much of the season, which is reasonable given her upbringing and Harfoot society. That she does end up trusting him matters to the story. Even then, the writers hint at who the Stranger is to the audience in the final scene, probably precisely because they wanted to end the mystery for LotR fans. That's a smart, in character, in universe way of ending the mystery, not bad writing.

Now, this is a major deviation from Tolkien's work, and I can see fans of Tolkien being concerned about what bringing Gandolf and the other wizards into the 2nd age means for the overall structure of the story. How that could lead to a domino effect of other changes. But that only makes this story different, not bad.

 

[Maxperson]

Maybe I am misremembering, but after the big battle with the horses, didn't they go over a nearby hill and see the boats anchored in a river? I took that as they had sailed the boats up-river to be closer to the southlands. Such a thing was seen in RotK. The number of horses on those ships I don't have an answer for, but if anything, that's a production/budget issue rather than a writing issue. I'm willing to overlook that as 'movie-magic'. Fair if some don't.

Only 3 ships left Numenor with the "army" of 300 soldiers, 300 horses, food and equipment for all of them, however many sailors sailed the ships, food and equipment for them. That had to be food for round trip, too, since they couldn't be guaranteed to get food where they were going. Those ships were not large. There's no way they got all of that on them. Which of course led to memes like this.

Well, in Star Wars it was 3 in pretty quick succession. Droids end up at Luke's farm, and they happen to need a translator and an astro-mech. The first astro-mech that Lars picks happens to have a bad motivator. Ben happens to be wandering nearby when Sandpeople attack Luke.

Jawas have lots of droids, so having a translator and astro-mech wasn't much of a coincidence. Neither is Ben being close to Ben's house which is where Luke was going when he was attacked. Especially since Ben had both ears and the force to detect an attack going on not to far away.

For the RoP sequence, we have Galadriel being 'rescued' by Sauron (which given the end of the season, seems very likely was not a coincidence), getting attacked by the sea monster (again, may not have been a coincidence) and being found by Numenorians in the ocean (we don't know how long they were at sea, could have been quite a while)

Sauron wasn't alone. He was with southron's who had no reason to be out in that area of the ocean at all. Nor is Sauron capable of knowing the future and just happening to be there when Galadriel shows up. If maia were capable of that, Morgoth would have been even more capable and couldn't have been caught off guard the way he was.

As for Galadriel's decision to jump ship, we see characters in LotR do all kinds of out of character things when tempted by the One Ring. The One Ring is what Sauron poured his "malice, cruelty, and his will to dominate all life". That sounds like abilities Sauron has intrinsically, and that his creation of the Ring amplified (would love to understand more from you on how that idea fits in with Tolkien's writing on the matter). So perhaps what the series is showing us is that Galadriel's obsession with hunting Sauron isn't just something from within her, but an effect upon her from Sauron, much in the same way the Ring drives people. The Ring is Sauron. That Galadriel doesn't tell everyone at the end of the season about what she discovered could also be much in the same vein here. Just because we haven't seen all of Sauron's plans laid out yet doesn't mean they aren't behind the story we're watching, effecting it.

The ring amplified his power and generally took time to affect people that weren't the most powerful elf to ever live. Sauron could not have had that kind of control over her.

Is it important to Nori that the Stranger is Gandalf (or some other wizard)? It's not, because she's meeting him for the first time, and that name wouldn't change the way she feels about him. Bad writing would have been for him to say, "I'm Gandalf" like it means something to her (again, see Khan in ST: Into Darkness). If you were watching this series without any knowledge previous works, the name wouldn't mean anything to you either. What's important is what the writers actually show, that Nori doesn't know if she can trust this Stranger or not through much of the season, which is reasonable given her upbringing and Harfoot society. That she does end up trusting him matters to the story. Even then, the writers hint at who the Stranger is to the audience in the final scene, probably precisely because they wanted to end the mystery for LotR fans. That's a smart, in character, in universe way of ending the mystery, not bad writing.

Bad writing is introducing yourself? "Who are you? I'm Nori." "Hmm, I can't remember." A few episodes later, "I remember who I am finally!" "That's great, what's your name?" "My name is not for you to know, but you may call me Gandalf."

That's not bad writing. Bad writing would have been, :::two harfoots find a stranger in a crater and approach, as they get close the stranger lifts his head and says, "Gandalf!":::: Which, compared to some of the writing in this series, wouldn't have been all that shocking.

Most of the writing was decent. Some was good. And more than some was just bad.

 

[OB1]

Only 3 ships left Numenor with the "army" of 300 soldiers, 300 horses, food and equipment for all of them, however many sailors sailed the ships, food and equipment for them. That had to be food for round trip, too, since they couldn't be guaranteed to get food where they were going. Those ships were not large. There's no way they got all of that on them.

Honestly, this strikes me as being the fault of a studio note. I'd guess that as written, it wasn't 300 soldiers on horseback charging in to save the day. Then either when shooting or in post-production, someone at Amazon saw the scene or the storyboards and said "make it bigger! This battle needs to be huge. Just like LotR!" and so they went 3x or 4x on the visual effects of the charge, figuring the average viewer wouldn't think about the logistics of it all. Note I'm not defending the lapse in logic for that scene, I'm just saying it's more likely it came from somewhere other than the writing. I'd have to rewatch those episodes to see if before and after match up with 3 ships, and only the dramatic battle charge is different. My sense is there wasn't hundreds of Numenorians in the camp after the battle.

And really, logistics are often sent to the wayside in fantasy. What do all the orcs in Mordor eat and drink every day to stay alive? It's a barren wasteland. Does Amazon deliver to Mordor via Nazgul?

 

[Maxperson]

Honestly, this strikes me as being the fault of a studio note. I'd guess that as written, it wasn't 300 soldiers on horseback charging in to save the day. Then either when shooting or in post-production, someone at Amazon saw the scene or the storyboards and said "make it bigger! This battle needs to be huge. Just like LotR!" and so they went 3x or 4x on the visual effects of the charge, figuring the average viewer wouldn't think about the logistics of it all. Note I'm not defending the lapse in logic for that scene, I'm just saying it's more likely it came from somewhere other than the writing. I'd have to rewatch those episodes to see if before and after match up with 3 ships, and only the dramatic battle charge is different. My sense is there wasn't hundreds of Numenorians in the camp after the battle.

And really, logistics are often sent to the wayside in fantasy. What do all the orcs in Mordor eat and drink every day to stay alive? It's a barren wasteland. Does Amazon deliver to Mordor via Nazgul?

Nurn, an area of Mordor is much more fertile than the portions you see in the movies, and it has slaves working the fields. The food they raise, and probably even some of the slaves are what feeds those orcs. I'd guess the southrons that join the orcs in the show are the first of those slaves.

 

[Dausuul]

And really, logistics are often sent to the wayside in fantasy. What do all the orcs in Mordor eat and drink every day to stay alive? It's a barren wasteland. Does Amazon deliver to Mordor via Nazgul?

Southern Mordor is not all smoke and ash; Sauron has vast fields there worked by slaves which provide food for his armies. This is noted at one point in "Return of the King."

Tolkien was absolutely rigorous about things like this. I came across an article once which broke down the logistics involved in the Witch-King's assault on Minas Tirith, the massive challenges of moving such a giant army with medieval technology, and how every detail in the books (not so much the movies) takes those challenges into account.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Just wanted to return to this with some geographical nerdism. The Josephine Seamount rises to a height of nearly three miles above the nearby Horseshoe Abyssal Plain, so supposing the plain was at the level of the continental shelf before the Fall of Númenor, the Meneltarma would have had about the same elevation above sea level as the peak of Mont Blanc in the Alps (Misty Mountains).

I can accept that: Numenor is supposed to be a huge island, more like Ireland than a smallish island, and Reunion island has a 3,000 meters peak despite being around 50 km by 50... Hawaii has 4,000 meters peak with Big Island being 100 by 100.

On the other hand the Meneltarma doesn't seem to have eternal icecap on its top, with people gathering there in white robe and garlands, not heavy boots, furs and winter clothes.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Maybe I am misremembering, but after the big battle with the horses, didn't they go over a nearby hill and see the boats anchored in a river? I took that as they had sailed the boats up-river to be closer to the southlands. Such a thing was seen in RotK. The number of horses on those ships I don't have an answer for, but if anything, that's a production/budget issue rather than a writing issue. I'm willing to overlook that as 'movie-magic'. Fair if some don't.

My issue with this visual is that sending five ship sounded like a big issue with Numenor, more like expeditionary force (but not mass mobilization) than coast guard operation. Their head of state oversaw the operation personnally, after interpreting that the operation was a do-or-die thing with the tree losing its petals when she considered not to go. And the result is... Five ships, reduced to three by a little harbour fire. While I can accept the scale to be changed compared to the books (even if I prefer, wherever possible to keep consistency with other sources), it will break my suspension of disbelief if they send more than 20 ships against Sauron or 30 or so for the great armament... I accept they don't make Numenor the superpower it is supposed to be at the end of the Second Age like in the books, since they are doing a different show, but if they show that it is 1% of Athens at Salamine times, then it set the scales for the near future ability of Numenor.

You postulates that the "big army" of 300 horseman was added later because the scenes weren't epic enough for a higher executive. I don't buy it because if it was really intended to be 3 ships with a few warriors, it would be a routine operation for the country, not something the general population would notice (many countries sent ships to patrol against pirates along the coast of Somalia, and noone in the contributing countries noticed...) and which presents no "existential threat".

I very much liked the artistic presentation of those ships, though.

For the RoP sequence, we have Galadriel being 'rescued' by Sauron (which given the end of the season, seems very likely was not a coincidence), getting attacked by the sea monster (again, may not have been a coincidence) and being found by Numenorians in the ocean (we don't know how long they were at sea, could have been quite a while).

This sequence with the surprising sea monster was useless (they could have just dropped it altogether and gone along with the story. I hope they will explain it was all prepared by Sauron in the first place, and set up for Galadriel, because it makes little sense as it stands.