Regarding Spider Climb

[sniffles]

A friend of mine who GMs several games just sent this email to Ask Wizards to clarify the spider climb spell. A couple of players in our group have perhaps been abusing it just a bit, using the druid's ability to cast personal spells on his animal companion to allow their animals to climb up walls while the druid rides the animal. The GM just wanted to pin down all the details of how the spell affects both the spellcaster and the mount/animal companion.

If this question has already been discussed elsewhere in this forum, please feel free to direct me to that thread.

Dear Ask Wizards,
Regarding Climbing and Spider Climbing;

It takes 2 hands to Climb and Spider Climb, but you can still cast spells,
and presumably punch/kick but can you attack with a weapon ?

IF you take damage while "Spider Climbing" do you still make a Climb check ?
Can you Take 10 (it says you can when rushed or threatened (10 + 8
racial bonus for spell + STR + climb ranks) ?

Does the +8 racial bonus to Spider Climbing increase if your climb speed
increases (like Jump checks) ?

Do you "cling" to the wall while "Spider climbing" ? Does not moving
require an action to maintain your position ?

The DC to avoid falling is based on the slope of the wall, but has nothing
to do with the amount of damage taken ?
- this makes Ray of Frost pretty powerful/useful...

IF a mount is "Spider Climbing" but their rider is not, does the rider have
to do anything to hold on when going vertical or on a ceiling? ie. skill
check, move action, etc... Do they suffer any penalties ?
- it seems to mean that gravity would force them downward.

IF BOTH the mount & rider are "Spider Climbing" does the rider have to do
anything to hold on when going vertical or on a ceiling? ie. skill check,
move action, etc...
- can the rider "Spider climb" on the back of the mount to stay on ?
Does casting spider climb on yourself and your mount cause your butt to stick to the mount, or do you have to make Ride checks to stay in the saddle?

IF the mount falls what kind of extra damage do they do to the rider who
presumably falls too and is crushed underneath ?

Will an unintelligent mount (ie. a non-familiar or animal companion) even
allow itself to be ridden/climb vertically or on a ceiling ?

Can spiders or "Spider Climbers" even climb "a perfectly smooth, flat,
vertical surface" ?

IF yes, what is the DC to avoid falling if they take damage on "a perfectly smooth, flat,
vertical surface" ?

4 out of 5 "Spider climbing & Eldritch blasting" Warlocks want to know...

 

[Zora]

It's not "abusive" when there's a specific substitution level created for halfling druids for JUST that reason: to cast things like Jump or Spider Climb on the animal companion mount.

Sheesh.

(Just a little input from an "abusive" player) 8)

 

[frankthedm]

It takes 2 hands to Climb and Spider Climb, but you can still cast spells,
and presumably punch/kick but can you attack with a weapon ?

“The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner.” Unless the DM says otherwise, those hands are occupied.

IF you take damage while "Spider Climbing" do you still make a Climb check ?
Can you Take 10 (it says you can when rushed or threatened (10 + 8
racial bonus for spell + STR + climb ranks) ?

Why would you not need to make a climb check when struck? Not so sure on taking 10.

Does the +8 racial bonus to Spider Climbing increase if your climb speed
increases (like Jump checks) ?

No.

Do you "cling" to the wall while "Spider climbing" ? Does not moving require an action to maintain your position ?

You should be able to just stay where you are.

Will an unintelligent mount (ie. a non-familiar or animal companion) even
allow itself to be ridden/climb vertically or on a ceiling ?

Wizards.com recommended it be a specific trick to teach a mount to do this.

Can spiders or "Spider Climbers" even climb "a perfectly smooth, flat,
vertical surface" ?

“ A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surface cannot be climbed.”

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

“ A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surface cannot be climbed.”

unless the epic level handbook is in play. IIRC, there is a DC for this under the climb skill.

 

[carborundum]

How handy, a spider climb thread! It's not quick a hijack, more a supplementary question, an addendum, if you will...

Would anyone like to give me a quick idea on how to rule on characters fighting upside down using Slippers of Spider Climb. We did it with increasingly difficult strength checks (started at 5, did it like drowning for con) just to be able to, and with a -4 AC and to Hit for good measure. Does that seem reasonable?

 

[TheGogmagog]

It looks like you should read the spell to see what it does. Older gamers might be recalling how it was in 2.0 or how previous DM's ruled it. I don't see anything about making attacks in the spell, so that elliminates most of your questions.

I don't see anything in spiderclimb about being able to attack. It does say you must use your hands. It doesn't say anything about butts. So you can't attack (unless you have more than 2 arms or a bite), you don't stick to a saddle. You might be able to buy an aerial mount saddle, but I don't know the rules associated with that.

The DC to avoid falling is based on the slope of the wall, but has nothing
to do with the amount of damage taken ?
- this makes Ray of Frost pretty powerful/useful...

Damage taken is based on how far you fall. If you fall down a 60degree slope, it would be up to the DM, but damage could be reduced. Perhaps I don't understand your question/point please elaborate.... Ray of frost does 1d3 damage. It doesn't make you fall. Are you reading the spell descriptions or just the name of the spell?

What are substitution levels from?

 

[Nail]

Hold up:

Why does the affected PC have to make climb checks at all? Attacked or not? Smooth wall or rough?

The subject gains a climb speed of 20 feet; furthermore, it need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down).

 

[sniffles]

Hold up:

Why does the affected PC have to make climb checks at all? Attacked or not? Smooth wall or rough?

That would be the contention of most of the players. It's only the GM who's arguing that you still have to make Climb checks. His argument as I understand it is that spider climb doesn't equate to the "clinging" ability (from Champions) - i.e., it doesn't make you like Spider-Man. It just gives you a big bonus to your Climb skill so you can climb surfaces you ordinarily wouldn't be able to climb without a rope.

The question came up because one of the characters in a particular campaign is a halfling druid/sorcerer. In Races of the Wild there are racial substitution levels to give certain classes a different flavor for the various races, and this player took the halfling druid substitution levels for his character. These substitutions allow a halfling druid to ride his animal companion. Halfling druids with substitution levels can also spontaneously swap certain prepared spells for other spells on a predetermined list - one of which is spider climb.

The player has been using his druid ability to cast personal spells on both himself and his animal companion to cast spider climb on his mount and himself. He then rode his mount up a wall and onto a ceiling and cast spells from there.

The GM in question argues that the halfling shouldn't be able to ride his companion up walls so easily, especially since he doesn't use a saddle at all, and that he also shouldn't be able to casually travel on the walls in spider climb mode. The GM feels this would give a character with spider climb too much of an advantage over other characters moving normally. He wants to rule that if you take damage while spider climbing you may fall and take falling damage as well.

The spell description states that the subject must have its hands free to climb, and that it "need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside-down)". But does a vertical surface include a perfectly smooth, flat surface, which the Climb skill description says you cannot traverse, period? Real spiders have trouble even with vertical surfaces that aren't perfectly smooth, like bathtubs.

But we're not sure how to interpret that when it applies to a creature serving as a mount. Does the mount have to have hands in order to utilize spider climb, or do four (or more) legs suffice?
Does the rider have to make Handle Animal checks to get the mount to climb up a wall?
How does the rider stay in the saddle? Does the spell give him the ability to stay put automatically, or does he have to put his hands on his mount at all times?
When riding your feet usually aren't touching your mount - should they be for spider climb to keep the rider on the mount? In other words, does the rider have to stand on his mount in order to cling to the mount while spider climbing?

 

[TheGogmagog]

CLIMB: A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.

[Edit: The spell spider climbhttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiderClimb.htm does say no check is required, the rest of my answer stays the same though.]

'Smooth vertical surface' doesn't mean anything in game terms, the real question IMO is What is the DC, and can you succeed while taking 10. 95% of the time the DM will decide if the take 10 would succeed and not bother bringing the issue up. Smooth walls (like MY tub) arent going to be common in D&D unless you are in a city of brass or crystal and walls of force. The epic level handbook sets DC's for climbing such a wall at DC 70. If +8 puts you in that range then go for it.

There is room for DM interpretation, but I agree that a character riding on the back had better be hanging on with both hands. Requiring a mount to have hands vs 4 limbs would be overly pedantic, so would a player who argues his feet are free while spiderclimbing.

Yes you would have to make handle animal checks to make any mount to climb up a wall, even animal companions require checks. It's just those classes are likely to have ranks in handle animal, and have the animal trained to do such things. A familiar who's intelligence is higher than 4, isn't an animal however and could choose to climb. Also note the Handle animal DC difference if the animal is trained the 'trick' of climbing the wall or not.

When riding your feet usually aren't touching your mount - should they be for spider climb to keep the rider on the mount? In other words, does the rider have to stand on his mount in order to cling to the mount while spider climbing?

I would allow a druid to share a spider climb spell and hold on to the mount with his 2 free hands, possibly bending legs to grip the mount, though it would be a visual thing not a mechanical thing unless you are going to be pedantic and say the druid in ape form can wield a sword with his 'feet'.

 

[TheGogmagog]

For what it's worth, I'm 'on the fence' on whether the subject of a spider climb spell (or a spider for that matter) must make a climb check when they take damage while climbing. I'm inclined to say they do need to make the check. The spell doesn't make mention of the exemption, and the Climb movement rate doesn't mention any such exemption.

Again I could see a DM rule either way and wouldn't argue. If someone has reference to a rule (or faq) that says otherwise I'd like to see it.