D&D 5E Refined PHB feat revisions

[ro]

What do you think? Do you see a way to exploit Mobile + Agile to break things?

It does open up any generic character to +20 movement. +10 on 30 gets slightly faster than a wood elf, and +10 on 25 matches the wood elf. +20, on the other hand, far outpaces the current generic character. But, as you point out, there are combinations that can do that already.

My greater interest is that overall among feats, feat powers are unique to each feat. This would create a very rare case in which something other than an ability score increase can be found in multiple feats. It is not game breaking, but it seems to be against the intent in feat design.

A key motive is the potential for narrative distortion produced by Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter: ignoring cover to deal unreasonable damage at unreasonable ranges (120' to 600'). With Archery and Bless to mitigate the attack penalty. The game becomes one of pavises and kiting.

Great Weapon Master is a gimme for heavy weapon users like Barbarians and Champions. It doesn't automatically produce a bonus attack, and it can't get the +2 to attack that ranged can. It can do a lot of damage, but only in close-quarters. So it is less distorting to our scenarios. And using it to best effect prevents a character from having the best armor class. It does overshadow other melee feats to an extent, but other fighting styles are as strong or stronger... and I believe Great Weapon Master is narrow enough to avoid stepping on toes. It overshadows more because it serves an archetype that appeals, rather than through being the strongest setup.

It's worth thinking about the counter-case of course. Let's say that we do nerf Great Weapon Mastery? What do we gain? We shift the game balance toward casters and ranged. For me, preserving melee as the king of single-target damage is where the overall balance works best.

I don't know much about these feat combinations. Is the basic premise of Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter that you get one extra attack with a hand crossbow? Nerfing Sharpshooter to once per turn weakens it significantly compared to Great Weapon Master when you have multiple attacks. What if you instead limited it to:

"Before you make an attack as part of an Action or Reaction with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a −5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage."

This would remove the bonus action attack from Crossbow Expert but retain the Extra Attack abilities.

 

[ro]

I like your work a lot! Here are a few feats modified based on yours:

Athlete

You have undergone extensive physical training to gain the following benefits:

- You gain proficiency in the Athletics or Acrobatics skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
- When you are prone, standing up uses only 5 feet of your movement.
- Climbing and swimming don’t cost you extra movement.
- You can make a running long jump or a running high jump after moving only 5 feet on foot, rather than 10 feet.
- You decrease the Strength requirements of heavy armor by 2.
- You suffer no penalty for being encumbered, and when you are heavily encumbered, you instead suffer the penalty of being encumbered.
- You can hold your breath for twice as long as normal.
- You have the ability to resist one level of exhaustion, and you regain this ability after a long rest and injesting some food and drink.


Mounted Combatant (includes Charger)

You are a dangerous foe to face while mounted. While you are mounted and aren’t incapacitated, you gain the following benefits:

- You have advantage on melee attack rolls against any unmounted creature that is smaller than your mount.
- You can force an attack targeted at your mount to target you instead.
- If your mount is subjected to an effect that allows it to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, it instead takes no damage if it succeeds on the saving throw, and only half damage if it fails.
- When you use your action to Dash, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or to shove a creature. If you move at least 10 feet in a straight line immediately before taking this bonus action, you either gain a +5 bonus to the attack’s damage roll (if you chose to make a melee attack and hit) or push the target up to 10 feet away from you (if you chose to shove and you succeed). You can make the roll to shove using either your own, or your mount’s ability.
- If you can communicate intelligently with your mount, you can control your mount to do anything it could do of its own accord.


Skulker (includes UA Stealthy and Observant)

You are expert at slinking through shadows. You gain the following benefits:

- You gain proficiency in the Stealth skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
- You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding.
- When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with an attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position.
- Dim light doesn’t impose disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks relying on sight.
- If you are hidden, you can move up to 10 feet in the open without revealing yourself if you end the move in a position where you’re not clearly visible.
- If you can see a creature’s mouth while it is speaking a language you understand, you can interpret what it’s saying by reading its lips.
- When you are lightly or heavily obscured according to sight, you are also lightly obscured according to sound.


Dungeon Delver (includes Keen Mind and Observant)

Alert to the hidden traps and secret doors found in many dungeons, you gain the following benefits:

- Increase your Wisdom or Intelligence score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
- You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence (Investigation) checks made to detect the presence of secret doors.
- You have advantage on saving throws made to avoid or resist traps.
- You have resistance to the damage dealt by traps.
- You can search for traps while traveling at a normal pace, instead of only at a slow pace.
- You always know which way is north.
- You always know the number of hours left before the next sunrise or sunset.
- You have a +5 bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) and passive Intelligence (Investigation) scores.
- You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month.


Healer

You are an able physician, allowing you to mend wounds quickly and get your allies back in the fight. You gain the following benefits:

- You gain proficiency in the Medicine skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
- When you use a healer’s kit to stabilize a dying creature, that creature also regains 1 hit point.
- As an action, you can spend one use of a healer’s kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points to it, plus additional hit points equal to the creature’s maximum number of Hit Dice. The creature can’t regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest.
- You gain the ability to cast Healing Word once per short rest without expending a spell slot.
- When you restore a creature's hit points or remove a condition or disease, make a DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check. On a success, that creature gains additional hit points equal to your proficiency modifier.

 

[clearstream]

It does open up any generic character to +20 movement. +10 on 30 gets slightly faster than a wood elf, and +10 on 25 matches the wood elf. +20, on the other hand, far outpaces the current generic character. But, as you point out, there are combinations that can do that already.

My greater interest is that overall among feats, feat powers are unique to each feat. This would create a very rare case in which something other than an ability score increase can be found in multiple feats. It is not game breaking, but it seems to be against the intent in feat design.

That's worth thinking about. As well as ability score increases, more than one feat buffs AC, attack, and damage. Two effectively buff healing. Two feats provide a cantrip. Multiple feats provide bonus attacks. So it's not unheard of for some doubling up.

Part of the design goal is that the Athlete benefits should add to, rather than overlap, Second Story work. They also need to integrate well into the concept of a feat that benefits stealth, skulking, agility... the exploration pillar. Any thoughts on other ways to achieve that?

I don't know much about these feat combinations. Is the basic premise of Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter that you get one extra attack with a hand crossbow? Nerfing Sharpshooter to once per turn weakens it significantly compared to Great Weapon Master when you have multiple attacks. What if you instead limited it to:

"Before you make an attack as part of an Action or Reaction with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a −5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage."

This would remove the bonus action attack from Crossbow Expert but retain the Extra Attack abilities.

That is helpful, certainly. As you can imagine from my own proposal, I can't feel that it goes far enough. We need to place a correctly high value on range. Being able to do repeatable heavy weapon damage at 120-600 feet is not where the game balance should be. Or perhaps a better way to put it is that ordinary stock of foes - the Monster Manual creatures - weren't designed with that in mind. Essentially, Sharpshooter should not have both range and damage, it should trade off one for the other. Because range has value.

It's worthwhile making some sample characters and trialling them against monsters appropriate for level. You will see how broken you can make this combination always bearing in mind the range that it operates at. We can also consider the classes who do not have Extra Attack: for them, my proposed version of Sharpshooter functions at 100% power. What the "Once per turn" change does is prevent the feat from becoming egregious in the few specific combinations that warp the game.

 

[Mistwell]

Skulker (includes UA Stealthy and Observant)

You are expert at slinking through shadows. You gain the following benefits:

- You gain proficiency in the Stealth skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
- You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding.
- When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with an attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position.
- Dim light doesn’t impose disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks relying on sight.
- If you are hidden, you can move up to 10 feet in the open without revealing yourself if you end the move in a position where you’re not clearly visible.
- If you can see a creature’s mouth while it is speaking a language you understand, you can interpret what it’s saying by reading its lips.
- When you are lightly or heavily obscured according to sight, you are also lightly obscured according to sound.

This version makes a lot more sense to me than the half-feat version in the OP.

 

[Thurmas]

That is helpful, certainly. As you can imagine from my own proposal, I can't feel that it goes far enough. We need to place a correctly high value on range. Being able to do repeatable heavy weapon damage at 120-600 feet is not where the game balance should be. Or perhaps a better way to put it is that ordinary stock of foes - the Monster Manual creatures - weren't designed with that in mind. Essentially, Sharpshooter should not have both range and damage, it should trade off one for the other. Because range has value.

It's worthwhile making some sample characters and trialling them against monsters appropriate for level. You will see how broken you can make this combination always bearing in mind the range that it operates at. We can also consider the classes who do not have Extra Attack: for them, my proposed version of Sharpshooter functions at 100% power. What the "Once per turn" change does is prevent the feat from becoming egregious in the few specific combinations that warp the game.

I'm feeling the same as Ro regarding the once per turn. I see where you are coming from, but it just feels annoying to me. What about, instead of once per turn, it becomes "Before you take the attack action with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a −5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage." Similar to what Ro said, but removing the reaction part. It is still more limiting than the feat in its current form, but not not quite as reduced.

You could also add in a line that limits the feat being used only within the weapon's normal range, not within its max range. That satisfies your range criteria of not working out to 600'.

Alternatively, maybe you go a slightly different route, making it into the really sniper type shot I think you are looking for. "As an action, you make a ranged weapon attack. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the damage roll." Removes the -5 to hit, but you also remove extra attacks or other benefits that require the attack action. They basically spend their action concentrating on one extra damaging attack.

 

[Yaarel]

There are two kinds of armor. Those that benefit from Dexterity, and those that dont.

For Dexterity armor, combine Lightly Armored and Moderately Armored into the same feat, plus proficiency with Shield.

 

[clearstream]

There are two kinds of armor. Those that benefit from Dexterity, and those that dont.

For Dexterity armor, combine Lightly Armored and Moderately Armored into the same feat, plus proficiency with Shield.

That's a great idea!

 

[clearstream]

This version makes a lot more sense to me than the half-feat version in the OP.

I like [MENTION=6890747]ro[/MENTION]'s version (other than giving Stealth skill, the feat should benefit those who already have Stealth), but am constrained to using nothing from UA. I think as Agile leaving the Athlete benefits express rather than implied works, so with just a minor tweak to better fit with Second Story work, what do you think of -

Agile (merges Athlete with Skulker)
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13 or higher
Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding, and when you are hidden from a creature and miss it with a ranged weapon attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position. Dim light doesn’t impose disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks relying on sight.
When you are prone, standing up uses only 5 feet of your movement. Your Speed when climbing or swimming increases by 10’. You can make a running long jump or a running high jump after moving only 5 feet on foot, rather than 10 feet.

So this is intended to support a character's goal of excelling on the explore pillar. As per the original feats, it requires the character to bring something of their own to the table in the form of existing relevant skills. It should support Thief and Assassin archetypes well, and characters who take backgrounds that give them Stealth and/or Athletics.

 

[clearstream]

Athlete

You have undergone extensive physical training to gain the following benefits:

- You gain proficiency in the Athletics or Acrobatics skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
- When you are prone, standing up uses only 5 feet of your movement.
- Climbing and swimming don’t cost you extra movement.
- You can make a running long jump or a running high jump after moving only 5 feet on foot, rather than 10 feet.
- You decrease the Strength requirements of heavy armor by 2.
- You suffer no penalty for being encumbered, and when you are heavily encumbered, you instead suffer the penalty of being encumbered.
- You can hold your breath for twice as long as normal.
- You have the ability to resist one level of exhaustion, and you regain this ability after a long rest and injesting some food and drink.

I dislike expertise here for reasons outlined previously. DM will rue this change if they have a Shield Master in their campaign.

Mounted Combatant (includes Charger)

You are a dangerous foe to face while mounted. While you are mounted and aren’t incapacitated, you gain the following benefits:

- You have advantage on melee attack rolls against any unmounted creature that is smaller than your mount.
- You can force an attack targeted at your mount to target you instead.
- If your mount is subjected to an effect that allows it to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, it instead takes no damage if it succeeds on the saving throw, and only half damage if it fails.
- When you use your action to Dash, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or to shove a creature. If you move at least 10 feet in a straight line immediately before taking this bonus action, you either gain a +5 bonus to the attack’s damage roll (if you chose to make a melee attack and hit) or push the target up to 10 feet away from you (if you chose to shove and you succeed). You can make the roll to shove using either your own, or your mount’s ability.
- If you can communicate intelligently with your mount, you can control your mount to do anything it could do of its own accord.

I like the merge of Mounted Combatant with Charger. They seem to fit together well. You need to specify that the mount's Dash action lets you attack or shove. Not your own

Skulker (includes UA Stealthy and Observant)

You are expert at slinking through shadows. You gain the following benefits:

- You gain proficiency in the Stealth skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
- You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding.
- When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with an attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position.
- Dim light doesn’t impose disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks relying on sight.
- If you are hidden, you can move up to 10 feet in the open without revealing yourself if you end the move in a position where you’re not clearly visible.
- If you can see a creature’s mouth while it is speaking a language you understand, you can interpret what it’s saying by reading its lips.
- When you are lightly or heavily obscured according to sight, you are also lightly obscured according to sound.

I liked the lateral thinking here: it got me thinking! I want to propose we merge Dungeon Delver with Skulker instead. What do you think?

Dungeon Delver (includes Keen Mind and Observant)

Alert to the hidden traps and secret doors found in many dungeons, you gain the following benefits:

- Increase your Wisdom or Intelligence score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
- You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence (Investigation) checks made to detect the presence of secret doors.
- You have advantage on saving throws made to avoid or resist traps.
- You have resistance to the damage dealt by traps.
- You can search for traps while traveling at a normal pace, instead of only at a slow pace.
- You always know which way is north.
- You always know the number of hours left before the next sunrise or sunset.
- You have a +5 bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) and passive Intelligence (Investigation) scores.
- You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month.

Again your takes on these got me thinking. I want to propose merging only Keen Mind with Observant. Thoughts?

Healer

You are an able physician, allowing you to mend wounds quickly and get your allies back in the fight. You gain the following benefits:

- You gain proficiency in the Medicine skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
- When you use a healer’s kit to stabilize a dying creature, that creature also regains 1 hit point.
- As an action, you can spend one use of a healer’s kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points to it, plus additional hit points equal to the creature’s maximum number of Hit Dice. The creature can’t regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest.
- You gain the ability to cast Healing Word once per short rest without expending a spell slot.
- When you restore a creature's hit points or remove a condition or disease, make a DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check. On a success, that creature gains additional hit points equal to your proficiency modifier.

I think where expertise is given narrowly, for something outside Bard and Rogue core excellence, it works well. However, Healer is a top-tier feat, and here its power level is pushed too far for me. Healer is profoundly good just per RAW.

 

[clearstream]

I'm feeling the same as Ro regarding the once per turn. I see where you are coming from, but it just feels annoying to me. What about, instead of once per turn, it becomes "Before you take the attack action with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a −5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage." Similar to what Ro said, but removing the reaction part. It is still more limiting than the feat in its current form, but not not quite as reduced.

You could also add in a line that limits the feat being used only within the weapon's normal range, not within its max range. That satisfies your range criteria of not working out to 600'.

Alternatively, maybe you go a slightly different route, making it into the really sniper type shot I think you are looking for. "As an action, you make a ranged weapon attack. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the damage roll." Removes the -5 to hit, but you also remove extra attacks or other benefits that require the attack action. They basically spend their action concentrating on one extra damaging attack.

We're going to need the power of maths The balance of SS can be considered against melee (Great Weapon Master) and single-strike classes (Rogue). Let's use your and @ro's revision - thus SS applies only to the Attack action. I'll use a base 50% chance to hit, and please note that Archery improves as the attack chance reduces. All characters are assumed to have 18 in their relevant ability score.

Starting with Rogue, how much does SS cause Fighters to overshadow them at range?

At 5th level using H.Xbow, Rogue with Sneak Attack deals an expected 10.8 and Fighter with Archery and Longbow deals 10.65. Including chance to critical.
At 5th level using H.Xbow and SS (−5/+10 shot), Rogue with Sneak Attack deals an expected 8.3 (i.e. no improvement) and Fighter with Archery and Longbow 13.4. Including chance to critical.
With my revision, Fighter with Archery and SS (−5/+10 shot) deals 12.025 instead.

By 11th level this picture looks much worse for Rogues.

At 11th level using H.Xbow, Rogue with Sneak Attack deals an expected 16.575 and Fighter with Archery and Longbow 15.975.
At 11th level using H.Xbow and SS (−5/+10 shot), Rogue with Sneak Attack deals an expected 11.45 (i.e. no improvement) and Fighter with Archery and ​Longbow 20.1.
With my revision, Fighter with Archery and SS (−5/+10 shot) deals 17.35 instead.

SS allows Fighter to overshadow Rogue substantially more at ranged, given your an @ro's revision. I should add that characters have equal access to bonuses that change these numbers, like Half-Orc Savage Attacks. I'm just showing the base case. On the whole, such bonuses favour Archery and Extra Attacks.

Next look at Great Weapon Master

At 11th level using Longbow and SS (−5/+10 shot), Fighter with Archery deals an expected 20.1.
At 11th level using Greataxe and GWM (−5/+10 attack), Fighter with GWF deals 18.913 taking into account the chance of a critical yielding a bonus attack. They deal an expected 20.075 without taking the penalty.
With my revision, Fighter with Archery and SS (−5/+10 shot) deals 17.35 instead.

So we can see that Archery+SS Fighter with Longbow is overshadowing both Rogue and Great Weapon Master. At 600' range! The reason is essentially that a flat +2 add to attack chance scales powerfully. The worse the chance to hit, the better (relatively) it does. Great Weapon Master always goes in the opposite direction: the better the chance to hit, the better it does. If you apply any magical buffs to all this, Fighter goes off the chart compared to Rogue.

We have to reflect on why we want to have damage that equals the best seen in toe-to-toe - at long range (600')!? From range, basic balancing factors such as lower AC (from using a two-handed weapon) don't play as much of a part. From range, if movement speeds are equal the Archery Sharpshooter can kite - mitigating 100% of damage. Flip through the Monster Manual and we see that few foes are equipped to deal with that.

[Edited to give Rogue Heavy Crossbow, as they only make one attack anyway. Range will be shortened to 400'. Also fixed incorrect application of penalty to Extra Attacks under my revision.)