D&D 5E Real city sizes are so different in DND! Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter compared.
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Benjamin Olson
Hero
I wouldn't be surprised if the size of the City of London (within the vastly larger Greater London) was the basis for the size of Waterdeep, given that in the English-speaking world it is probably the most widely familiar demonstration of the principle that medieval cities were generally tiny compared to modern ones.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
First, welcome to the forum! Nice first post. Have a Like! 
Yeah, real-life ancient cities were SMALL by modern standards. For example, here is Ancient Athens (blue) in modern Athens:
Ancient Rome in modern Rome:
Ancient London in modern London:
So, yeah, D&D cities are "small" compared to modern times, but ancient cities were relatively small, despite populations that could be incredible. But with such crowded conditions and (relatively) poor sanitation in some cases, it isn't surprising disease was rampant.
The "sprawling" cities we imaging in D&D really wouldn't be by their size, but more by their density they might feel that way and although crossing them as the crow flies wouldn't take too long, walking the winding streets would.
Yeah, real-life ancient cities were SMALL by modern standards. For example, here is Ancient Athens (blue) in modern Athens:
Ancient Rome in modern Rome:
Ancient London in modern London:
So, yeah, D&D cities are "small" compared to modern times, but ancient cities were relatively small, despite populations that could be incredible. But with such crowded conditions and (relatively) poor sanitation in some cases, it isn't surprising disease was rampant.
The "sprawling" cities we imaging in D&D really wouldn't be by their size, but more by their density they might feel that way and although crossing them as the crow flies wouldn't take too long, walking the winding streets would.
Benjamin Olson
Hero
I think one core tension here is that the authors creating these cities have a vague sense of the scale of medieval cities, but their own experience, and the cultural touchstones of players they want to cater to, is with modern cities. There are sometimes anachronisms of scale as a result (ie: infrastructure that doesn't really match the population or size of the city).
Another issue is, of course, a less pronounced version of the CRPG scale phenomenon where the largest "city" in Skyrim only has like 30 people in it (not including the mysterious family-less guards). This stuff takes time to create, so you just create enough to make the player feel immersed. In tabletop the issue is much less pronounced, because you can create the stuff they actually encounter as you go and leave big parts of the map vague. But still there is little value in spreading the interesting features over a vast, unwieldy map of mostly boring streets if you can fit them all in a relatively smaller one and still get players to accept that as a large urban environment.
Another issue is, of course, a less pronounced version of the CRPG scale phenomenon where the largest "city" in Skyrim only has like 30 people in it (not including the mysterious family-less guards). This stuff takes time to create, so you just create enough to make the player feel immersed. In tabletop the issue is much less pronounced, because you can create the stuff they actually encounter as you go and leave big parts of the map vague. But still there is little value in spreading the interesting features over a vast, unwieldy map of mostly boring streets if you can fit them all in a relatively smaller one and still get players to accept that as a large urban environment.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
FWIW, if anyone is interested, this is the size comparison for the ancient cities, all at the same scale:
Populations (estimated) near their "peaks":
Athens: 350-500,000 (includes women, children, and slaves--who could number as much as 80% of the population!)
Constantinople: 200-800,000 (in varies widely over the centuries, often about 400-500,000)
London: 50-80,000 (depending on era)
Paris: 200-300,000 during the middle ages
Rome: 1,000,000 (reported as high as 4-5 million, but reports contradict on just who was counted: men only, citizens only, females and children, even slaves...?)
York: 10-15,000
Obviously, this isn't exact, but it can give you an idea of how crowded much of these cities were. Rome, for example, would starve without the wheat crops brought in, and Paris has a history of famine due to loss of crops. I think it is important to note this largest cities in ancient to medieval times could not survive without the influx of trade and food (much like our large modern cities, of course!).
Fire (due to how close buildings were), disease (due to lack of general health care in many cases, population crowding, and exposure), and famine (crop failures, etc.) were the primary fears, along with invasion by rival cities (both in the region and from abroad).
Populations (estimated) near their "peaks":
Athens: 350-500,000 (includes women, children, and slaves--who could number as much as 80% of the population!)
Constantinople: 200-800,000 (in varies widely over the centuries, often about 400-500,000)
London: 50-80,000 (depending on era)
Paris: 200-300,000 during the middle ages
Rome: 1,000,000 (reported as high as 4-5 million, but reports contradict on just who was counted: men only, citizens only, females and children, even slaves...?)
York: 10-15,000
Obviously, this isn't exact, but it can give you an idea of how crowded much of these cities were. Rome, for example, would starve without the wheat crops brought in, and Paris has a history of famine due to loss of crops. I think it is important to note this largest cities in ancient to medieval times could not survive without the influx of trade and food (much like our large modern cities, of course!).
Fire (due to how close buildings were), disease (due to lack of general health care in many cases, population crowding, and exposure), and famine (crop failures, etc.) were the primary fears, along with invasion by rival cities (both in the region and from abroad).
The City of Boston was once a single peninsula of 800 Acres - 1.25 square miles.
Today, the city proper is about 48 square miles. Where the "city proper" = stuff within the legal city limits, governed by the Mayor of Boston.
But when someone from outside Massachusetts asks where we are from, we will often answer "Boston" if we are within the loop of a major highway - and that's an area more like 250 square miles.
Then there are the statistical areas used for census numbers, and that's a whole different kettle of fish.
So, this also depends on what you call "in the city".
Today, the city proper is about 48 square miles. Where the "city proper" = stuff within the legal city limits, governed by the Mayor of Boston.
But when someone from outside Massachusetts asks where we are from, we will often answer "Boston" if we are within the loop of a major highway - and that's an area more like 250 square miles.
Then there are the statistical areas used for census numbers, and that's a whole different kettle of fish.
So, this also depends on what you call "in the city".
Aldarc
Legend
Hussar
Legend
This is something I notice in a lot of fantasy cartography. Not all, of course, but a noticeable trend.
Modern style civic planning in medieval towns and cities. The idea of single family dwellings with yards, for example. You see this all the time.
I think it has a lot to do with simply not experiencing truly old towns and cities. If you’re American or Canadian, likely the oldest city you’ve seen was still developed alongside cars. Even East Coast cities were built pretty late after things like civic planning became a real thing.
The city next to my town did not have a civic planning department until the 1980’s. So the city is a mass of spaghetti snarl streets barely wide enough for two cars to meet. Houses and property lines six inches from the roads. That sort of thing.
Modern style civic planning in medieval towns and cities. The idea of single family dwellings with yards, for example. You see this all the time.
I think it has a lot to do with simply not experiencing truly old towns and cities. If you’re American or Canadian, likely the oldest city you’ve seen was still developed alongside cars. Even East Coast cities were built pretty late after things like civic planning became a real thing.
The city next to my town did not have a civic planning department until the 1980’s. So the city is a mass of spaghetti snarl streets barely wide enough for two cars to meet. Houses and property lines six inches from the roads. That sort of thing.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Good point, @Hussar. I grew up in the U.S. but have spent enough time in Europe visiting old city regions. Here is a shot from Google Earth that demonstrates how tight thing commonly were (basically wide enough for a wagon or cart, with enough room for people to move to the sides):
Of course, a lot of the larger cities did have very wide "avenues", for troops to march down, but once you got off of those, most streets were maybe 12 feet, and many only 6-8 feet.
I've tried to model this in my fantasy maps, but frankly it both looks horrible and is a visual mess, making it of practically no use to the game despite a realistic look.
Of course, a lot of the larger cities did have very wide "avenues", for troops to march down, but once you got off of those, most streets were maybe 12 feet, and many only 6-8 feet.
I've tried to model this in my fantasy maps, but frankly it both looks horrible and is a visual mess, making it of practically no use to the game despite a realistic look.
I think that is a pretty wide for some ancient cities. I have been in the old "Medina" in Fez Morocco and I could spread my hands and touch the buildings on both sides of the street simultaneously.Good point, @Hussar. I grew up in the U.S. but have spent enough time in Europe visiting old city regions. Here is a shot from Google Earth that demonstrates how tight thing commonly were (basically wide enough for a wagon or cart, with enough room for people to move to the sides):
View attachment 259704
Of course, a lot of the larger cities did have very wide "avenues", for troops to march down, but once you got off of those, most streets were maybe 12 feet, and many only 6-8 feet.
I've tried to model this in my fantasy maps, but frankly it both looks horrible and is a visual mess, making it of practically no use to the game despite a realistic look.
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