D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Bedrockgames]

Mind you, I don't claim to be well versed in Ravenloft lore, so I'm coming at this from an outside perspective during the present time. You were introduced to it differently, and are certainly more passionate about the setting, at least for the Black Box, which I presume is the first setting product for Ravenloft, outside of the one off adventures like I6. Which is great, but nostalgia can sometimes blind us to shortcomings in things we remember fondly. I'm certainly not immune to doing that for the things I like in D&D. Ultimately, I guess what I'm rambling on about is that when Ravenloft is updated to 5e, it probably should change to some degree with the times as well. If it can't do that without remaining staunchly Ravenloft, well, the Black Box is still there for those who enjoy it.

Personally I don't think WOTC is capable of producing content as good as the black boxed set. At least for me, I've never really liked WOTC adventure or setting content. But that is separate from issues of nostalgia and problematic content. What I am trying to do is simply cast more light on the original entries because I feel people are simplifying in their characterization of it, and I also feel the critical lens being applied is too sweeping and will potentially throws the baby out with the bath water. Am I blinded by nostalgia? In this case I don't think I am. I can criticize the things I loved growing up when they turn out bad. There are tons of books I read and loved that when I go back to them, they make me cringe because the quality really isn't there. But the black box is something that I call a masterpiece because I am always surprised by how good it is on review. It has a clear vision and philosophy about horror, which it expresses in an engaging and evocative way. I think anyone who grew up on a diet of classic horror can appreciate the tone it achieved, and I think it just works wonderfully (at least for me) at the table. This was also a book that showed me D&D can be so much more than Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. The two settings that impressed me most in that time were Ravenloft and Dark Sun, because they were startlingly refreshing. And Ravenloft breathed. You could feel the effect that black box had on a lot of the subsequent novels and supplements. All you need to make a successful Ravenloft Campaign are the black box, an adventure like Feast of Goblyns, and a handful of Van Richten Books. I had the entire line. But IMO the magic occurred in that span of material.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Oh those women! If only they had been stronger and able to resist this charming little boy, they might have realized how awful they were and not doted on him. This not-so-subtly blames the women for giving into him. But where was his father in all of this? The next time he's mentioned, it's when Dominic makes him relocate the family to a new country. I'd bet hard cash that his father's reaction was along the lines of "that little scamp! Well, boys will be boys!"

This seems like a really odd reading of the text. Again, not a fan of the gazetteers. But like I have been saying this whole thread: content does not equal message. I am just not getting the same messaging that you seem to be in most of these backstory elements.

 

[Voadam]

So this thread is interesting in seeing the domains fleshed out in 3.5 with details that are generally not inconsistent with how domains and darklords and such were defined before, but defining them in ways that were not there before. Hazlik and his body issues was the first inkling that this was the 3.5 gazetteer approach.

I am coming into this having run long term campaigns using the pre-conjunction Realms of Terror book, having enjoyed the Domains of Dread focus on native characters, and having read the 3.0 setting book cover to cover. I have one gazetteer PDF that I have not really read, so this thread is great for seeing the differences from this late stage Ravenloft as a setting viewpoint and the choices made for the setting that I have not really seen before.

 

[Faolyn]

They did by describing around the black pit of "this book was banned in x country" as southpark recently showed, you just seem to lack the cultural & media exposure to connect it A description can only go so far in describing how brutal & capricious rulers impact the common people of their nation before it starts getting into very problematic territory. Simply describing it to someone who doesn't really grasp the bigger picture is how you get kick the dog evil societies.

OK, and? That has nothing to do with the lack of information written into a book for GMs.

Jacqueline manipulates people. The book could have gone into a few sentences as to how. For instance: it could say that, if she dislikes a particular aristocrat, she spreads rumors amongst the peasantry that the aristo is engaged in <activities to make a QAnon-er proud>, often driving the peasants into throes of homicidal fury. Among the aristocracy, she spreads rumors involving grabs of power and land that would give one faction a leverage over another, ensuring the latter one moves against the first.

Do you understand what I'm talking about now?

 

[Faolyn]

But like I have been saying this whole thread: content does not equal message. I am just not getting the same messaging that you seem to be in most of these backstory elements.

What this means is that you reading things that exist only in your head, not what was actually written.

Also, the medium is the message.

 

[Faolyn]

That. Is. Not. What. I. Said.

That is 100% what you have been saying repeatedly. A woman wrote part of it, so somehow that makes it OK for you.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That is 100% what you have been saying repeatedly. A woman wrote part of it, so somehow that makes it OK for you.

No, that isn't what I am saying. I don't know how you are getting 'a woman wrote it so that is why I think it is okay' form what I said. I really do not see how you get this conclusion. I have said over and over, it is relevant to reading the characters and it is an important historical detail about the development of the setting (that the original boxed set was co-written by a woman, that the original module was co-written by a woman, and that women wrote many of the supplements, books and adventures).

 

[Bedrockgames]

What this means is that you reading things that exist only in your head, not what was actually written.

Also, the medium is the message.

The medium is the message does not equal content is the message.

And no, I am not inserting things that are in my head. I have given plenty of examples when I have disagreed with you about an entry. The message you are reading from that content, I don't think that is the message of the character at all. I don't think it is a particularly accurate reading. That isn't me making stuff up in my head, that is me reading the same material as you, and reaching a different conclusion.

 

[Remathilis]

Yes I can, because the line got worse as time went on, and I have been defending the content of the black boxed set, the early models and feast of goblyn. The black box was a masterpiece. I think other entries in the Ravenloft live fell short of that (for example I think the whole thing with the Shadowrift and grandconjuction wasn't a good development). I mean do I have to include all the stuff from when white wolf published ravenloft? That stuff was terrible IMO. To me the black box is interesting because two people basically wrote it, so we are getting something that feels very much crafted and singular in its vision (I think the DoD book is similar and respected for similar reasons, but it just isn't my cup of tea when it comes to Ravenloft). Also one of the two writers on the black box was a woman and I think that is relevant and important here.

Part of the problem is that you can't dismiss canonical sources simply because you don't like them when discussing elements of the setting. For example, I can draw a hard line between the Star Wars Original Trilogy (which I adore), the Prequels (which my opinion is more nuanced on) and the Sequels (which I have grown to loathe) but when discussing Star Wars lore, I have to begrudgingly accept that all Nine films are cannon. I don't simply dismiss Luke's characterization in The Last Jedi didn't happen, even if I desperately wished it hadn't.

In your own game, you can use Ravenloft however you wish and if you want to only use pre-95 sources, that is valid and you are perfectly within your rights to. You can also decide you want to use one of the two noncanonical origins of Tristan Hiregaard instead and nobody will care. However, when discussing the setting in an open forum, you have to at least accept that the parts of the setting that you don't like are still part of it. You can dislike that additional elements were added to the setting like the overt Hitler elements of Drakov or the changes to Gabrielle Adierre, but its kinda disingenuous to say "Well, I don't have a problem with it because I don't accept those parts as real." If that's the criteria, the only true Star Wars movies are the six that begin with the 20th Century Fox Fanfare.

(and this is not to pick on you specifically, there were several comments through this tread that has dismissed criticisms with "oh, that was a later book")

 

[Bedrockgames]

So this thread is interesting in seeing the domains fleshed out in 3.5 with details that are generally not inconsistent with how domains and darklords and such were defined before, but defining them in ways that were not there before. Hazlik and his body issues was the first inkling that this was the 3.5 gazetteer approach.

I am coming into this having run long term campaigns using the pre-conjunction Realms of Terror book, having enjoyed the Domains of Dread focus on native characters, and having read the 3.0 setting book cover to cover. I have one gazetteer PDF that I have not really read, so this thread is great for seeing the differences from this late stage Ravenloft as a setting viewpoint and the choices made for the setting that I have not really seen before.

The three benchmarks are definitely the black box era, the DoD era, and the WW era (you could probably also throw in the red box/post grandconjuction era. For me Ravenloft was most interesting when it inspired me to add to it. I found the setting became too crowded with canon (and canon I often thought missed the mark, or just wasn't what I imagined the places being) for me. There is clearly a big audience for the WW content though. The fraternity of shadows crowd seems to really enjoy it. And I've met a ton of more OSR oriented gamers who love the DoD book (and I can appreciate the things they like about it).