Rate the Star Wars Movies

[Jester David]

I think I like that angle better than what they went with. Yes, it creates more questions, which could be explored in movie 3.

Yes, because JJ Abrams is the filmmaker we want answering questions.

Because I feel he still hasn't made the journey to the darkside yet. TFA leaves a little doubt hanging.

Not really.
He killed his father in TFA, completing his journey to the Dark Side. TLJ had Rey question again if he could return, and instead he doubled down and slew his master so he and Rey could rule together.
He's far, far beyond the pale.

He literally spaced his own mom! What else does he need to do to be evil? Dropkick a baby while eating a puppy?

Because in the trailer to TLJ they make a big deal out of it,

Surprise! The trailer lied. It was misdirection.
Here's the thing: trailers aren't made by the filmmakers. They're advertising and made by companies that specialise in marketing. This is like complaining you were misled by the poster...

The first time the DIRECTOR of the film saw the trailer was the day it premiered. And prior to that he was telling people not to watch the trailers, fearing they'd spoil too much.

and it would explain why she is able to use her powers so quickly in TFA. In a way they set it up already, but didn't follow up on it. I think it is an interesting angle to her character.

Again, that's not really thing in TFA. Ren asks her who trained her, but we as an audience know: no one. She's just strong in the Force. At no point does the film ask us to question who her parents are—her parent's aren't even mentioned—or the source of her powers. Even when we see Rey abandoned that's not refereed to as her parents, just the people she's waiting for.
The speculation? That was all on us.
We the audience.
The Star Wars fans who know that Star Wars is famous for parental plot twists. So when we saw the seeds for one, we all leapt into speculation. And then disappointing ourselves because the movie didn't stoop to cheap fanservice and have her as Obi Wan's daughter or Mace Windu's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.

Why? Everyone keeps criticizing Disney Star Wars about never doing anything new, and repeating beats from previous movies. And yet here is a chance to truly do something unexpected, and you don't want them to do it? Why?

First, people complained about that after The Force Awakens and Rogue One. And then we got The Last Jedi. And half of TLJ was something new.
So then people complained harder. Rey not being a special chosen one related to a main character. The hero's plans failing. Snoak not being around for the full trilogy. Poe being "wrong" about his leader. Previously unseen Force powers. Not repeating beats from past movies. Not having a lightsaber duel.
People don't want new. They want new in a comfortable and safe way that fits their expectations.

Second, the fallen hero being redeemed in the final act ISN'T ING NEW! We saw that with Vader. New is having Kylo Ren be irredeemable and put down like a dog.

Also... shocker here: Star Wars is for kids. Kids are a huge audience. They'll never do an R-rated Star Wars. Even the streaming shows on Disney+ will be less edgy than the Network Marvel shows and not approach the Netflix Marvel stuff.
Given it's for kids, you don't get deep into the weeds of philosophy for a kid's movie. You can't have an introspective metaphysical climax where Ben Solo redeems a fallen Rey without his lightsaber will have a theater full of bored kids.

I don't think any of this is true. Having to be saved from yourself does not make you a damsel in distress.

Is she not in control of her own destiny and requires someone else to give her back her life and restore her agency? Yes? Then she's a damsel in distress.
Rey needs to be an active part of her own life. When the most important character to Rey's story is someone else, then you've taken away her agency and made her a supporting character in her own story. If "Rey's story" is really "the story of how Kylo Ren saved Rey" then the movie has made a terrible, terrible mistake.

Having her succumb to the dark side does not make her morally less strong than previous characters, because the previous movies have already set up that the darkside can be very tempting, especially when it exploits feelings of fear and grief. Giving Rey a weakness in her character is good writing in my opinion, and the only way to get away from the feeling that she is a Mary Sue character. I also don't think it reduces her protagonist status. In fact, it makes her take central stage more. One of my issues with TLJ, was that it didn't seem to know what to do with Rey and her journey. It didn't seem to know how she fit into the story.

And yet Luke, being the Gary Stu of Gary Stus (despite NEVER being called that by people who call Rey a Mary Sue) pretty easily resisted the call of the Dark Side. Having Rey falls inherently means she is less strong than Luke. Especially as Luke required the threat on Leia to come close to falling and Anakin needed a lifetime of temptation climaxing in the desire to save Padme. Rey has... what? What attachment drives her to fall? There's no attachment.
Just having her succumb to the temptation of temptation makes her super effing weak.

And, again, it would mean she is literally repeating Anakin's character arc by being a desert kid inherently strong in the Force who succumbs to the Dark Side and has to be redeemed.

It could have been about stopping Snoke, or the First Order as a whole.

I've seen that movie before.
That was Return of the Jedi.

Plus... you kinda don't want the First Order stopped. They did that with the Empire and it just means no more easy stories, as you need a villain. I hope they learn their lesson after having to have The Force Awakens undo the victory of the Rebels and have the First Order around in some fashion, albeit humbled and weaker.

I think they could and should have tied them to Luke's plot in TLJ. It would have given Luke and Rey a common enemy to fight, and allowed them to better explain why Luke is in exile, while building up the threat of Kylo Ren. The big fight with Snoke's guards was nice and all, but really something they should have saved for the third movie.

I don't think the film would have been much improved by a fight on the planet they're training (and just make people wonder how they found Luke).
Plus, a present common enemy would eliminate Luke's character arc of deciding to willingly return to the fight. By bringing the fight to him, it negates any choice he would make. And if it doesn't... well then we end up with the exact same movie, only with a lightsaber fight added on for cheap thrills. It's literally superflous.

But, again, why do you care about the Knights of Ren? Have you been given any reason to care?
Reiterating my point, realistically, the "Knights of Ren" are a bunch of former 12 and 13 year old padawans who participated in the lightsaber equivalent of a school shooting and decided to give themselves a scary pompous name like the edgelords they are.
They're not badass elite mercenaries. They're not a highly trained force of darksiders hand picked by Kylo Ren to serve as his enforcers. They were fellow students who sided with him when he said "Luke tried to kill me. I'm going to burn the school down and kill everyone here. Are you with me... or not?"

The ONLY things that makes them cool are the name and the mystery.

Disney really should have thought all of this out before making any of the movies.

Probably.
But then they decided to leave the writing to the people making the films, rather than having the trilogy planned and outlined by management and studio heads.

 

[MarkB]

He literally spaced his own mom!

No, he did not. He had the shot lined up, ready to take it, knowing through the Force that she was in there - and he held back, took his finger off the trigger, decided not to go through with it.

And then one of his wingmen took the shot anyway, before he had a chance to communicate his decision to them.

 

[cbwjm]

What I'd love to see is Rey falling to the dark side and Kylo Ren having been restored to the light taking her out. That would be a massive twist that people wouldn't see coming. They'd be watching in the theatre and fully expect her to be saved and then BAM! Kylo lops of her head in a final showdown.

 

[MarkB]

I'd like to see Kylo training his Knights of Ren, the other apprentices who fled Luke's temple with him... and Luke haunting him as a Force Ghost, pointing out the contradictions and shortcomings in the Dark Side teachings Kylo is trying to pass on from what Snoke taught him, while also acknowledging the failings of the Jedi strictures that Luke had been attempting to pass on to his students. Eventually Kylo and Luke both redeem themselves through the lessons they pass on to the other students, finding a path that avoids both the Dark Side's veneration of anger and pain, and the Jedi Order's aversion to any emotional connection.

We're not going to get anything like that, but it'd be nice.

 

[Jester David]

What I'd love to see is Rey falling to the dark side and Kylo Ren having been restored to the light taking her out. That would be a massive twist that people wouldn't see coming. They'd be watching in the theatre and fully expect her to be saved and then BAM! Kylo lops of her head in a final showdown.

And you think kids were crying hard while leaving the theater after Infinity War...

 

[Jester David]

No, he did not. He had the shot lined up, ready to take it, knowing through the Force that she was in there - and he held back, took his finger off the trigger, decided not to go through with it.

And then one of his wingmen took the shot anyway, before he had a chance to communicate his decision to them.

Very true. I'd forgotten who took the shot.
It was a lovely fake out. Making you think he hadn't completely gone Dark Side and still giving you some hope throughout the movie, only to have him show that he was fully evil and irredeemable at the end.

 

[MarkB]

Very true. I'd forgotten who took the shot.
It was a lovely fake out. Making you think he hadn't completely gone Dark Side and still giving you some hope throughout the movie, only to have him show that he was fully evil and irredeemable at the end.

Fully evil, at least. I don't think he was demonstrably irredeemable.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Fully evil, at least. I don't think he was demonstrably irredeemable.

Vader murdered children and yet he was "redeemed". It is hard to find someone under these circumstanecs that could be irredeemable in Star Wars. Of course, he also died, but it's not like Kylo character needs to survive this trilogy. Especially if they want to get rid of the "Skywalker" bloodline as important factor in the Star Wars universe.

 

[Dioltach]

Vader murdered children and yet he was "redeemed". It is hard to find someone under these circumstanecs that could be irredeemable in Star Wars. Of course, he also died, but it's not like Kylo character needs to survive this trilogy. Especially if they want to get rid of the "Skywalker" bloodline as important factor in the Star Wars universe.

It just struck me that perhaps the reason why Jedi weren't allowed to have children was precisely to prevent the kind of drama that comes with these bloodlines ...