Rangers and favored enemies and feats

[The Souljourner]

So I wanted to make a ranger, see if they're as bad as everyone thinks. I found a few feats to take, looked at some prestige classes... and then realized I'd read two things incorrectly:

1.) Extra favored enemy - this feat from MotW doesn't increment all the rest of your favored enemies, the way getting one through levels does. How crappy is that? You have to have at least +5 BAB which means a straight ranger has to wait until 10th level for that +1 to become a +2. Whoopteedoo. I was a lot more excited about it when I thought it incremented the rest.

2.) Shadow Scout. I'm looking at it thinking "Boo ya, 4 favored enemies in 10 levels, sweet!" In actual fact, it's the same one, incremented three times. Suck. Granted, it does increment the rest of your favored enemies each time, but still...

*sigh* Why does everything with the ranger just suck that little extra bit?

Supernatural blow - cool idea (even though you really should get the bonus to damage against everything anyway... but at least they were willing to address it)... oh but wait, you have to take it for each and every favored enemy which is immune to critical hits.

Favored Critical is the only one that is half decent... and it's still too specialized... you have to spend one of your precious 7 feats getting an extra keen against *one* enemy. At least with improved critical, you can at least choose what weapon you use. You can't choose what monsters you fight.

I'm still going to play a ranger, but I have a sneaking (heh) suspicion that a rogue/fighter would just be better.

-The Souljourner

 

[Crothian]

Rangers rock. I just took Favored Critical as my 9th level feat. I applyied to Giants, and I will be choosing my enemy to fight. I don't understand how people can't do that. If I want to fight giants, which I do, I go seek them out. We are traveling to a evil Temple. I do a little gather information on the way and locate some giant and we take side journeys either on the way there or on the way back, I perfer both.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

2.) Shadow Scout. I'm looking at it thinking "Boo ya, 4 favored enemies in 10 levels, sweet!" In actual fact, it's the same one, incremented three times. Suck. Granted, it does increment the rest of your favored enemies each time, but still...

Anger!! Anger!! I am ANGRY!!!!!

Counting to ten...
1,
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3,
4,
5,
6,
7,
8,
9,
10.

Calming down. Calming down...

Okay, whew...I used to really dig the Shadow Scout, since I too thought that you chose additional FEs every four levels. Thank you for enlightening me that this is how it actually works. I was not mad at you, I'm just annoyed that I had finally found a good Ranger PrC, and it turned out to blow chunks. I'd still take four levels of it though (if I ever wanted to play a Ranger), since Detect Favored Enemy works on all your FEs.

So yes, Ranger PrCs blow. Extra Favored Enemy is bleh. Supernatural Blow is a cover-up of the way it should have worked to begin with. Favored Crit? I'd rather take Imp Crit.
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So now the only way I'd actually want to play a Ranger is if I twinked out and used a two-handed weapon and armor spikes.

But I am not going to sink so low... *pout*
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Crothian---
I will be choosing my enemy to fight. I don't understand how people can't do that. If I want to fight giants, which I do, I go seek them out.

If that were how most campaigns worked IMX, I'd be happier with the ranger. If the party started on the Outlands and we could walk on over to the Abyss and regularly find Evil Outsiders, then I'd be a moron not to take them as a FE.

However, most of the time (with multiple DMs in different groups, so I'm not being specific to one DM), a ranger does not have the luxury to face a single species in question for the entire course of a campaign. Sometimes you're facing drow clerics with undead minions, sometimes its orcs who summon demons.

So yes, if a DM allows a single PC to determine where the rest of the party goes, then sure, rangers can rock. It's just not very likely. It's especially not true when a DM has a storyline with challenges that are not specifically catered to the PCs abilities.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: Rangers and favored enemies and feats

So yes, if a DM allows a single PC to determine where the rest of the party goes, then sure, rangers can rock. It's just not very likely. It's especially not true when a DM has a storyline with challenges that are not specifically catered to the PCs abilities.

It's not that we always fight the same thing. Don't your DMs ever allow the PCs to choose a path? We fight other things, but my character is a slayer of giants so is willing to go out of his way to do so. The other characters don't mind becasue we support each other as a group. If they want to take a side trek to do something, I'll support them in return.

And when I DM if there is someone who excels at fiughting a particuliar enemy I make sure to have that enemy in the campoaign. Agian, not every session, but DMs should not purposely create situations in which certain classes will never shine.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Re: Re: Re: Rangers and favored enemies and feats

It's not that we always fight the same thing. Don't your DMs ever allow the PCs to choose a path? We fight other things, but my character is a slayer of giants so is willing to go out of his way to do so. The other characters don't mind becasue we support each other as a group. If they want to take a side trek to do something, I'll support them in return.

I see that this is possible, but if the group is composed of four or more players, that's 25% or more of the time that you are not going to shine. That is also assuming that the DM never applies any outside storylines to affect the party (such as, "the town is plagued, go find the cure" or "the king has been kidnapped, go find him." Or anything from a module.)

Of course, a party of four rangers with the same FEs doesn't have this problem.

And when I DM if there is someone who excels at fiughting a particuliar enemy I make sure to have that enemy in the campoaign. Agian, not every session, but DMs should not purposely create situations in which certain classes will never shine.

To me, the difference between rangers and all other classes is this: Other classes rarely face situations where they don't shine, whereas rangers rarely face situations where they do shine.

Example: Rogues. Their SA is often effective. (Sometimes it isn't, but most of the time a rogue can finagle the situation to make a devastating SA)

Contrast to Rangers: Their FE is rarely effective. (Sometimes it is effective, but only if the ranger is permitted to regularly face his FEs.)

FE works about the same way that Turn Undead does, and yet a cleric not facing undead still shines, while a ranger not fighting his FE is at an impaired effectiveness (in comparison to other classes).
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BTW, I know that my point is not valid after L20. A ranger becomes nuts during Epic Progression. You have so many FEs that they are constantly applicable. Also, Bane of Enemies is to die for.

 

[Plane Sailing]

If you and your DM are not adverse to looking at feats from other sources apart from that published by WotC you might like to check two of the campaign feats on my website, Inside their guard and Pierce the vitals.

Regards

 

[The Souljourner]

Re: Re: Rangers and favored enemies and feats

Thank you for enlightening me that this is how it actually works. I was not mad at you, I'm just annoyed that I had finally found a good Ranger PrC, and it turned out to blow chunks.

Yup, no problem. I know how you feel. That's how I felt.

I'd still take four levels of it though (if I ever wanted to play a Ranger), since Detect Favored Enemy works on all your FEs.

Umm... umm... read it again it says you can detect your favored enemy - singular, implying the one you took for this class. I agree, having detect favored enemies as an ability would be cool... but alas, it was not to be.

I love that the class gets +10 movement at first level. I always thought rangers should get something like that. Maybe I'll just make up my own prestige class and say the heck with WotC's neutering.

So now the only way I'd actually want to play a Ranger is if I twinked out and used a two-handed weapon and armor spikes.

I don't know if I could get away with that, even if I were cheesy enough to try... and I don't think I am. besides, how do you put armor spikes on a chain shirt? I mean, really, that's just silly.

As for the rest of what you said, let me just hop on the flag waving band wagon and wave my "What ConcreteBuddha said" flag.

I'm still going to play a ranger, that's for sure, but I really wish they could have tried to make everything just a little bit better.

For those who care, I'm starting a human ranger 2 / barbarian 1 (mostly for the movement, thought the occasional rage isn't a bad thing). Taking run and shield expert and one other feat... not sure what the other feat should be, any help would be appreciated. I'm planning on taking extra favored enemy at 6th, since it'll be incremented immediately by 5th level ranger, so will effectively start at +2. 7th level will be shadow scout - one level is still pretty damn good, though you do have to waste a feat on Run to get it, but then my first two favored enemies (1st level and the one from the feat) will be at +3, which is not too bad at 7th level.

We'll see how it goes.

-Nate, aka The Souljourner

 

[Stalker0]

My problem is not really that their abilities are situational, its that even when the situation comes up, there abilities still aren't that cool

I mean +x to damage is nice, bonuses to skills are good, but that doesn't make me excited about a character like spells, SA, bardic music, and lots of feats.

 

[LORDAJ]

I just started a Ranger in a new campain, I used to DM but we got a new guy that is real good so i ACTUALLY get to play a character for once. I haven't really had the chance to use my favoried enemy yet but I earn my keep in the party by scouting and playing a more defensive role. I took expertise, dodge, have a high dex and if its getting real bad i'll drop my hand axe for a buckler and i'll have a real nice AC. Held a hallway full of monsters once while the dammage tanks healed up, it was kinda cool. Plus all the scouting means i get to act first when we run into somethign or someone. I have pry the most fun with playing a Ranger even with some of their faults.

 

[IceBear]

But, as someone pointed out, couldn't you proabably do all this better as a rogue/fighter?

IceBear