[Proposal] New Magic Weapon

[stonegod]

So, what does that weapon bring more to LEB, or even to Tondrek?

- It allows artificers not to have to switch from a weapon to an implement if they want. They do already get this staffs, correct. But a mace is a one handed weapon, meaning they could have another weapon/implement in the other hand.
- Similar bonuses for warlocks/wizards if it is left as is (acts as a rod for all arcane casters)
- For artificers, will benefit anyone who takes the Self-Forged paragon path in that the power can apply to their battlefist. It doesn't allow them to use 3 implements (as they fist has to be empty to be wielded, and the property only kicks in if the battlefist is wielded.) It, however, isn't any more powerful than allowing the item in the first place with that note.

 

[stonegod]

What if it was a club instead of a mace? The likely users of the weaplinment who would want a mace would likely want a high con(infernalocks and con-based artificers), that could benefit from hammer rhythm. Knocking it down to a club still makes it good, but no longer great.

A club is in the mace group, so this applies. You could limit it to just clubs, of course, but he you miss the benefits for self-forged later on (not requiring another weapon).

As I said, I'm not against removing the critical property; that came from using the divine item as a base. I'm more interested in having a mace/rod implement interchange (likely at level 7 or 8 [pact sword is race limited at 7, so we could make this class limited; pact-blade is not limited but also has an extra property/power]).

Sorry, maybe my optimization hat's not functioning today, but how does it work with blade channeling?

Its not SBC that is the issue; hybrids get access to implements of each class for both class powers. So a hybrid Sorcerer/Artificer could use the mace for the 9 aforementioned melee implement powers they have. Still wouldn't work for SBC.

 

[Velmont]

- It allows artificers not to have to switch from a weapon to an implement if they want. They do already get this staffs, correct. But a mace is a one handed weapon, meaning they could have another weapon/implement in the other hand.

The staff is quite enough. All implement have their own advantage and disadvantage. That's the staff advantage. The rod advantage is to give you the option to wield two of them.

- Similar bonuses for warlocks/wizards if it is left as is (acts as a rod for all arcane casters)

Warlock have a lot of Pact weapon and Wizard have also access to the staff, no need there I think.

- For artificers, will benefit anyone who takes the Self-Forged paragon path in that the power can apply to their battlefist. It doesn't allow them to use 3 implements (as they fist has to be empty to be wielded, and the property only kicks in if the battlefist is wielded.) It, however, isn't any more powerful than allowing the item in the first place with that note.

Now, that might be good point. I'll need to see what option are offered there. I guess Tondrek is going for Self-Forged.

 

[renau1g]

Now, if you hybrid sorcerer/artificer you have 2 different primaries and the secondaries (Str/Dex for sorcerer, Con/Wis for artificer) have 0 overlap. Essentially you are now relying on all six stats ...talk about MAD

Now the powers in question:
Teleport Bash - sorcerer 3 - pretty weak single-target spell
Spark Form - sorcerer 7 - this one is pretty decent.
One Blow, One Echo - sorcerer 7 - weak single-target spell


After that the spells are 13+, which may or may not ever come into effect here.

 

[stonegod]

Sorcerer/Artificer was just an example; more likely is Sorcerer/Warlock (primary overlaps, though no secondary overlap).

 

[renau1g]

Even with Warlock, only Eldritch Strike is affected right? ... oh and Spread the Corrosion - the 29th level daily.

I couldn't find another Warlock power with melee keyword.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Is something stopping melee bards or swordmages from grabbing Arcane Implement Proficiency (Rods) and using this to great effect?

 

[stonegod]

Is something stopping melee bards or swordmages from grabbing Arcane Implement Proficiency (Rods) and using this to great effect?

There are no bard melee implement powers. As I mentioned earlier, there are very few such for the swordmage.

Swordmages can benefit 3 of their powers and sorcerer's 9 if they take a feat.

Now, for the weapon powers for both classes: They can already take Arcane Implement Proficiency (Staffs) and pick up the Battle Staff for their melee crit needs. Actually, they don't have to take that feat if they are just using weapon attacks as it is a simple weapon and they are already proficient in it; it only matters for implement attacks if they want to use the implement bonus (no crits there).

Edits: In either case, swordmages are loosing their warding bonus, of course.

 

[KarinsDad]

The proposal system has been put into place to allow and encourage these sorts of customizations.

Is it?

I thought that the proposal system was to clean up wonky rules (like non-Kalashtar initiating telepathy) and at one point, to allow Dragon magazine elements into the system in a balanced manner.

At one point in time, many elements of Dragon magazine were not allowed here. Only if a Dragon magazine proposal got accepted after debate did something get in. Now, everything from Dragon magazine is allowed.

The judges have already opened the floodgates to all of Dragon magazine. With a proposal to allow player designed custom items, feats, or powers into the game system (abet one at a time), it just introduces an even larger management and balance set of issues.


A custom designed item that is both mace and rod seems strong. The PC does not need to put away the mace in order to pull out the rod. The PC does not have to own two magic items, just one to handle both weapon and implement powers. This seems a bit potent to me. In fact, Unforgettable Cudgel seems potent to me.

As for which classes this item benefits, it obviously benefits Artificers more than most other arcane classes because they would now have an implement / weapon and that do have powers that benefit from it such as Aggravating Force. And many implements do not have a +D8 critical damage increase, only a +D6.

Is this overpowered? Somewhat. It's not overwhelmingly overpowered, but it is extremely potent.


My main issue is not the power of the item, but that of allowing players to design their own items (and eventually feats or powers). Say, for example, that this proposal gets accepted.

Does the DM then get to decide "Well, I know that Tondrek put this item on his wish list, but I don't think it is appropriate."? Or, is it a matter that once such an item is proposed and approved, Tondrek will definitely acquire that item sooner or later?

It's one thing to have WotC wish list items that may or may not be given in the game, it's another to have a proposal item where it's then more or less expected that the PC acquires the item that the player designed.

The players already get to pick their exact starting items. This doesn't happen in all home games. It's a major benefit here. I'm not too keen on the idea that the players also get to design and pick their higher level items as well and design their PCs to the nth degree. That smacks too much of player entitlement. Why exactly do we have a DM if the player designs their own items?

Players designing and picking their magic items, that's over the edge from my perspective. If the item gets accepted, then the player is going to expect to acquire that item come hell or high water. This item expectation will become the norm and players who might not acquire their wish list items from a given DM might start designing their own items, just so that they too get what they want.

And it introduces a management issue on the web pages as to what is allowed and what is not allowed. Not a problem today with just one such item, but what happens when a lot of people start proposing items specifically designed for their PCs? What happens when players start designing their own feats? What happens when Tondrek's item gets accepted, but someone else's item does not?

From my perspective, we shouldn't even go there. We shouldn't even go there for a weak item because it sets a precedence to allow stronger items in later on.

We have an extremely massive list of items, powers, feats, and classes to choose from. Designing your own should be for home games where the DM has the authority to put the brakes on the game element, not in public games where the judges make that decision ahead of time and then it is nearly impossible to reverse later on (unlike WotC who will nerf items). And, it can create issues with haves and have nots. "Where is the 19/20 crit item for my Druid? Oh, I can go design it? Thanks. Where is the Dimension Door spell item for my Fighter? Oh, I can go design it? Thanks.".

Once you open Pandora's Box, it's hard to close it again.

 

[renau1g]

Is it?

I thought that the proposal system was to clean up wonky rules (like non-Kalashtar initiating telepathy) and at one point, to allow Dragon magazine elements into the system in a balanced manner.
.

It is:

LEBroposals - ENWorld Living Eberron Wiki