Produce Flame?

[Mercy]

Hello all. Last night an issue with the Produce Flame spell came up regarding when your allowed to make your first attack with the ball of fire produce.

My thought is that on the round you cast the spell (a standard action) you are allowed to make a melee touch or ranged touch attack as part of the standard action of casting the spell.

The other thought was that you had to wait until the next round before making an attack.

Option A: Rnd 1, cast spell and make first attack.

Option B: Rnd 1, cast spell. Rnd 2 make first attack.

Which is the correct interpretation?

thanks

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think that per the rules it's B, but I run it as A. All of the Touch spell rules on being able to target someone in the round you cast the spell do not apply because the spell is not strictly a Touch spell. It is Range: 0 and an Effect spell, but strangely not Touch.

 

[Vegepygmy]

FWIW, I agree with Infiniti. Technically, it's not a touch spell, but I treat it as one.

 

[frankthedm]

Correct. One does not get to chuck a flame when first casting the spell.

I think that this is a good thing. As a first level spell it is quite strong and it scales quickly and can make for sick attack combos. The duration [after a few levels] is long enough to last a few combats too unless the party dawdles. The gravy of having a light spell built in adds a bit too. I think this is one of those spells that lets the druid intrude too far into the wizard’s traditional roll of the party blaster. The one round delay I feel keeps the spell from overtaking magic missile.

IMO the wizard should be the one with this one on his spell list.

Also the one round delay prevents a selfish 1st level druid whose entire party has been plunged into darkness, from casting and chucking, making sure no one else benefitted from the light.

 

[Neorealist]

I'm sure i'd worry more that the parties only source of light was the first level druids produce flame spell than wether or not the druid was being selfish , but frank the dm is essentially correct. In order to launch a flame, you need to resolve either a ranged or melee touch attack, and after the standard action of casting the spell the only thing you have left that you can do during your turn that round (ordinarily) is a move action.

I believe however that you can make attacks of opportunity with the flames, and if your base attack bonus is greater than 5 you are able to make iterative attacks with it as per the normal rules for such as well. One final note, additional attacks granted by haste or some other source should allow one to spread the fiery doom around too.

 

[Marshall]

Frankly, you're all wrong. And wayyyyyy off base. The first attack is part of the casting of the spell, just like every other spell that requires an attack. Do you really want to apply that type of precedent to all the other 'Effect :' spells.

Jeez, just because the spell specifically allows you the option of using it as melee or ranged it doesnt get a whole new ruleset.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Produce Flame is stronger than Magic Missile as a 3rd or 4th level Druid. At all other levels it is inferior to Magic Missile, although still useful.

When I was playing a 3rd/4th level Druid, I was surviving on a diet of Produce Flame and Bull's Strength, while a Wizard of the same level could be casting Web, Glitterdust, and follow up with Magic Missiles.

The Druid has such a thin selection of offensive spells at low levels that it would make the Cleric of a pacifist god cringe. No need to poor salt into the wounds.

 

[Neorealist]

Jeez, just because the spell specifically allows you the option of using it as melee or ranged it doesnt get a whole new ruleset.

Actually marshall that is exactly what it means. It's probably easiest to adjudicate produce flame as a touch spell, and allow an attack as part of the casting. But unfortunately for whatever reason, IT ISN'T A TOUCH SPELL.

By a strict reading of the spell: it is a spell with range 0. So you cast the spell, and flames appear on your hand in a similar fashion as if you cast a fireball (or any other ranged spell) where the effects appear where you've designated. (within the range of the spell of course). Now produce flame has special rules for how you can actually throw the flames, and i see no reason why they shouldn't be followed.

Essentially what produce flame does is you cast it to make your hand light up with divine fire. That is all. What you then choose to do with that fire is up to you, but you must follow the 'special' rules for the spell and the game when you decide to do so.

 

[moritheil]

A player IMC likes Produce Flames so much that he goes around with a Persistent version of it. (Technically, this is legal.)

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think that this is a good thing. As a first level spell it is quite strong and it scales quickly and can make for sick attack combos.

Sick attack combos? Quite strong? Scales quickly? Even at 1d6+5, I can't believe any of that.

The duration [after a few levels] is long enough to last a few combats too unless the party dawdles.

You forget that the more you use it, the less time you have.

The gravy of having a light spell built in adds a bit too.

True, it produces light (while active), but it is not a [Light] spell.

I think this is one of those spells that lets the druid intrude too far into the wizard’s traditional roll of the party blaster. The one round delay I feel keeps the spell from overtaking magic missile.

Make this spell [Force] damage and you have a case. But as arguably the most common energy damage, this spell is not even comparable IMO.

Also the one round delay prevents a selfish 1st level druid whose entire party has been plunged into darkness, from casting and chucking, making sure no one else benefitted from the light.

Quite honestly, that is a ridiculous scenario. (Remember that I agree with your RAW interpretation) You're gonna base your ruling on the idea that the druid is not only the sole source of light, but we need to restrict his selfishness in a one-off spell?