Preview: Brutal Ability

[jaelis]

3d4 doesn't give the same probability spread as a single die-roll. Instead of having a flat curve where you have highs and lows, you have a bell curve where you're going to roll the same 3 damage numbers a full half of the time.

Yes, that is correct. But an awful lot of time, you will be rolling multiple [w]'s anyway, and the difference between, say, 9d4 and 3d10+6 is not all that much.

I'm not saying they are the same, I'm just saying the difference in the probability distribution is small enough that it wouldn't have a very apparent effect.

The point is that the decision about what method to use should be based only on fun and personal preference, because the primary mechanical effect is given by the average.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I agree that it'd make just as much sense to make a weapon 3d4 as 1d12, brutal 2, I'd be happy with the latter. I hate rolling abysmally low. I'd prefer the greater consistency of multiple dice, but I'd settle for brutal.

Hey, maybe we'll finally get a broadsword? Not the old 1e 2-8 (2d4), but a longsword with Brutal 1 tacted on?

 

[jaelis]

Actually, though the brutal mechanism seemed a little clunky to me at first, I've changed my mind... it lets you make the equivalent of multidice weapons (like my 3d4) while avoiding the need for huge handfulls of dice at higher levels. But it is even more flexible.

Now I wish they had used it in the PHB... the falchion could have been a 1d8, brutal 1 weapon, the maul etc could have be 1d12 brutal 1. Besides requiring less dice, that would also avoid any confusion (such as in vorpal) about when a "weapon die" refers to an individual die or the the entire [w] value.

Gauntlets of destruction would simply add 1 to the brutal value of a weapon, so they would have the same absolute benefit for any weapon (which would be to increase the average damage by 1/2 point.)

 

[Runestar]

Has anyone realized that if you have a creature able to wield larger weapons, such as a bugbear or minotaur, use a large brutal axe, that would improve its damage from 1d12(brutal2) to 2d6(brutal2)?

So I get to roll d6s, and ignore any result of 2 or less...

Brutal vorpal weapons just got much sweeter...

 

[Celtavian]

re

The fact that this brutal ability applies to powers that do more than once dice of damage makes it overpowered in my opinion. Rerolling is far more powerful than every one or two becomes a 3.

Sometimes it takes power use to reroll bad damage rolls with alot of 1s or 2s.

This ability allows you reroll when you roll the worst possible result on a d12 for all d12s for a given power. Doesn't this make it very overpowered?

 

[Dalzig]

The fact that this brutal ability applies to powers that do more than once dice of damage makes it overpowered in my opinion. Rerolling is far more powerful than every one or two becomes a 3.

Sometimes it takes power use to reroll bad damage rolls with alot of 1s or 2s.

This ability allows you reroll when you roll the worst possible result on a d12 for all d12s for a given power. Doesn't this make it very overpowered?

No. The weapon is identical to a 1d10+2 weapon (or w/e). To make this fit into the framework of 4e, they came up with the Brutal ability. This allows a minimal effect on the rules. The rerolling doesn't matter in this case.

 

[Celtavian]

No. The weapon is identical to a 1d10+2 weapon (or w/e). To make this fit into the framework of 4e, they came up with the Brutal ability. This allows a minimal effect on the rules. The rerolling doesn't matter in this case.

How does rerolling not matter? Let's say you are using a power that does 3W damage. You roll 2 1s and a 5. You get to reroll each one to boost your damage. Normally to do something like this you would have to expend a power or an action point such as a Kensai being able to reroll one roll with the expenditure of an action point including a damage roll, Battlefield archer to reroll a ranged damage roll, or dagger master ability.

The rerolling is powerful. More powerful than d10+2. If you roll a one or two on a d10+2 you get a three or four for damage. Wheras if you reroll a one or two with a brutal weapon you get a chance at higher than 3 or 4.

That isn't such a big deal when you do one dice of damage such as a basic melee attack or an at will power. But for multidice powers being able to reroll every one or two is a pretty powerful advantage. It makes the axe better than any weapon in the game bar none.

And when something is so good that obtaining it with a feat is a no brainer, that usually indicates it is overpowered.

 

[Cadfan]

Trust me, the probability distribution is exactly the same as 1d10+2.

1d10+2 has a flat distribution from 3 to 12, right?

Well, 1d12, reroll 1 and 2, has the same flat distribution across the same range. It doesn't matter what might happen if you roll a 1 or a 2 because then you just reroll. So really you're just dividing the chances evenly from 3 to 12, with no particular result favored more than others.

Think of it this way. What number from 3 to 12 is more likely than another number on a Brutal 2 1d12 weapon? I'll tell you, its none. They're all just as likely as each other.

 

[FireLance]

The rerolling is powerful. More powerful than d10+2. If you roll a one or two on a d10+2 you get a three or four for damage. Wheras if you reroll a one or two with a brutal weapon you get a chance at higher than 3 or 4.

Actually, it isn't. I'll illustrate using a hypothetical d10 brutal 2 weapon to show that it is equivalent to a d8+2 because it makes the numbers nicer, but the same principle applies to show that a d12 brutal 2 weapon is the same as a d10+2 weapon.

The distribution of possible results after a single roll of a d10 brutal 2 is as follows:

20% chance of reroll.
10% chance of 3.
10% chance of 4.
10% chance of 5.
10% chance of 6.
10% chance of 7.
10% chance of 8
10% chance of 9.
10% chance of 10.​

If you do get a reroll (20% chance), the distribution of possible results breaks down as follows:

4% chance of a second reroll.
2% chance of doing one reroll and getting a 3.
2% chance of doing one reroll and getting a 4.
2% chance of doing one reroll and getting a 5.
2% chance of doing one reroll and getting a 6.
2% chance of doing one reroll and getting a 7.
2% chance of doing one reroll and getting a 8
2% chance of doing one reroll and getting a 9.
2% chance of doing one reroll and getting a 10.​

If you actually do get a second reroll (4% chance) the distribution of possible results again breaks down as follows:

0.8% chance of a third reroll.
0.4% chance of doing two rerolls and getting a 3.
0.4% chance of doing two rerolls and getting a 4.
0.4% chance of doing two rerolls and getting a 5.
0.4% chance of doing two rerolls and getting a 6.
0.4% chance of doing two rerolls and getting a 7.
0.4% chance of doing two rerolls and getting a 8
0.4% chance of doing two rerolls and getting a 9.
0.4% chance of doing two rerolls and getting a 10.​

By now, it should be fairly clear that regardless of the number of rerolls, the chance of getting any valid result (i.e. from 3 to 10) is equal. This is essentially d8+2.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Maybe they did it as a reroll so the weapons don't look like an obvious choice. Let me show an example of what I mean.

Let's take the fighter power brute strike, Executioners axe and a str of 18.

Daily

Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage.

You would right out your damage for the executioners axe like this: 3d12 + 4 reroll a 2 or less.

Now if you were to use 1d10+2 instead you get this: 3d10 + 10.

Without working out the math the latter looks too good to pass up.

To those of you who did the math the answer was probably obvious as soon as you saw it. Mathematically they are exactly the same. To the layman it looks like the latter provides a higher minimum damage which in our minds is a higher average damage. This is not true obviously.

Another reason they did it the former way is because it would be confusing. If you made it do 1d8 + 2 it would get really confusing once you added enhancement bonuses. Brute Strike would be [3d8+6] +2 on a +2 magic weapon. I guarantee that a lot of people would try to do as 3d8+12. This would also probably cause people to try and multiply the enhancement bonus on non brutal weapons as well.

In conclusion, I think making it a reroll keeps it as simple as possible.