D&D (2024) Playtest 8: Cantrips

[Chaosmancer]

So, I've looked over it a few times and I'm... not sure about Shillelagh.

Part of the issue is, Druid cantrips selection sucks for damage options, but with the new druid abilities... I'm not sure. I'll compare to Produce Flame, since they are both "use a bonus action to create, then action to attack"

• So, levels 1-4 Shillelagh does good. 4.5+mod in melee vs 4.5 ranged is fairly good.
• 5th level Shillelagh is closer to even 5.5+mod in melee vs 9 ranged, they are doing about the same damage.
• 7th level becomes 5.5+4.5+mod vs 9+mod, that is still fairly close,
• 11th level 6.5+4.5+mod vs 13.5+mod the balance shifts in favor of Produce Flame, by a small amount, but more noticeable gap
• 15th level that gap is swapped, 6.5+9+mod vs 13.5+mod at EXTREME range
• 17th level, swaps again, 7+9+mod vs 18+mod at EXTREME Range

Okay, that does better than I thought it did. Now, if the Druid is using Poison Spray, which is more viable now, they are going to be doing way more damage, but at shorter range and with poison.

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Speaking of Druids, Druidcraft is the only one of the three "RP" cantrips that I feel needs an overhaul, it just doesn't stack up to the other two, even in terms of flavor.

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I really enjoy the change to Friends... but I don't think it went far enough. Take a look at it again.

Wisdom save vs Charmed condition on Concentration for 1 minute. This is fine.
10 ft range. Bit short, but fine.
Target Auto-Succeeds if they aren't humanoid. Fair Enough.
Target Auto-Succeeds if you are in combat with them. Fair Enough
Target Auto-Succeeds if you cast the cantrip on them within 24 hours. Wait, what? Why? This has never been a thing on any enchantment spell, and if I need more than a minute, I'd want to recast it. Remember, the sole benefit you are getting from this spell is advantage. And the Help action still exists. I just had players using the Help Action for advantage on a persuasion role earlier this week. Since they still need to fail the save, casting it multiple times is fine. It is an at-will ability.
The Spell ends early if the target takes damage. Okay, fair enough.
The Spell ends early if the caster makes any attack rolls, deals any damage, or forces any creature to make a saving throw. Wait, what? Why? Yes, if you attack the target, or their allies, that makes sense to break the spell. But lets say you charm the target, then an assassin attacks the target, and you attack their attacker... why would that break the spell? Let us say you are at a bar, cast Friends, then get in a knife-throwing contest where you are chucking knives at a board... why would that break the spell? Let us say you had cast Sanctuary on yourself, and an drunk tries to attack YOU after you cast Friends, and sanctuary activates to stop them.... why would that break the spell? I get the point they were TRYING to make. You shouldn't be able to attack or otherwise harm the target or their allies, because that would snap them out of the charm effect, but this has so many limits and breaks dozen of potential situations nonsensically.

So, for me? Remove the 24 hour limit, maybe increase the range of the cantrip, and change the last limit to "the spell ends early if the caster makes attacks rolls, forces saves, or deals obvious damage to the target or their allies." The obvious damage bit is because if they don't see you doing it, or you did it via a poison cup, again, why would that break the spell?

 

[Kurotowa]

Also, does anyone want poison spray to be a 15' cone?

You know, like a spray.

That's probably above the power level of a cantrip. Also, I don't know about you, but my Windex bottle doesn't spray in a 15' cone. It's a lot smaller and more directed than that.

 

[James Gasik]

A 10' cone maybe? Possibly get three guys. But it'd probably have to go back to being a saving throw.

 

[Mistwell]

Ok. If you are sure, play it this way.
I am sure you are wrong. But you have my blessing to ignore my assessment if it makes you happy.
Nit the hill I would die on.

I didn't say I was "sure". I said it needs a Sage Advice.

 

[Kinematics]

Also, does anyone want poison spray to be a 15' cone?

You know, like a spray.

Eh, I like it as is.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I didn't say I was "sure". I said it needs a Sage Advice.

I quoted you literally saying "I am pretty sure".
So maybe I misread that as "I am sure". My bad.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I am pretty sure it's not intended to be useable with two handed weapons. Which would solve this issue fairly well.

I haven't seen anyone else support you on this. This isn't Pathfinder 2E with its adjust grip action. I have seen a number of Eldritch knights and never seen a DM require them to keep a free hand either. This level of fretting over hand waving is hand waived at all tables I've seen.

 

[Mistwell]

I haven't seen anyone else support you on this. This isn't Pathfinder 2E with its adjust grip action. I have seen a number of Eldritch knights and never seen a DM require them to keep a free hand either. This level of fretting over hand waving is hand waived at all tables I've seen.

Not seeing anyone else here support me on this isn't indicative of much. And this has nothing to do with PF2, which I've never played. You have not seen it hand waived ever because this isn't the identical issue to the one you're referring to. That's why I say it requires Sage Advice. This isn't one of those issues of "can I cast a spell with a weapon in my hand" type things, which IS easy to deal with in the rules and existing sage advice. This is simultaneous using the weapon with the two handed property while using a hand for a somatic component - fine for a material component alone, but not clearly fine for using the two handed property simultaneously. The "normal" solution has always been you just take your hand off the weapon when casting the spell and then put it back on the weapon when you're done - not something possible with this precise combination due to the simultaneous nature.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, someone on Reddit pointed out something kind of fun.

Produce Flame doesn't have concentration, and it lasts the full minute after casting. So, you can wildshape and use Produce Flame to shoot little fireballs while wild-shaped. I'd even allow the druid to cast and wild-shape the same turn.

That could be a very fun little trick to have.

 

[Gadget]

I've noticed a little change on the wording of the trigger for Blade Ward. In base 5e, the wording would be

Reaction, which you take in
response to a creature you can see targeting you
with a melee attack

But now they've changed the wording to visible creature, which seems odd. I mean, this way is a bit more concise, but visible to whom? Presumably the caster, but why not 'visible to you' to make it clear. Its almost as if visible is a condition they are referencing. The reason I ask is that certain abilities like See Invisibility and such come into play. If you have such an ability, is the creature visible? To you, yes. But generally? No. Just seems curious.

I think Chill Touch was an overall downgrade, despite the slight damage increase. I guess now it can delivered via familiar though, so that's a plus. I can see why it--and Shocking Grasp-- lost their minor ribbon-like abilities (having undead targets attack you at disadvantage & advantage against targets with metal armor respectively), but it would have been nice to have more Necromancy Spells and Lighting damage spells have that little quirk in them rather than standardizing on nothing. Oh well, that probably would have been a bit too complicated.

With the new Monster design, I also see why it was necessary for Shocking Grasp to no longer deny all reactions but just opportunity attacks.

Produce Flame was a straight upgrade. It is now a full lantern plus attack cantrip with a decent range. Some will complain that it now takes a bonus action and regular action to use in the first round, but this is more than made up for not having the spell end when you throw fire at a target.

Acid Splash does seem better now that it is 10' circle that could perhaps get more than two people (swarms anyone?), still not sure if I would take it.

Spare The Dying seems like an upgrade, still not sure if it will be taken much.

Shillelagh does seem like it would have knock on effects, as it is far better for classes that have multiple attacks then regular Druids. Perhaps if it was also reworked similar to the blade cantrips (action to cast, attack with staff/club as part of the action)? Also the last scaling at 17th level seem like it should be 3d4 instead of 2d6, but I guess they wanted to keep it in line with weapon damage?

I don't see what all the fuss with Friends is about. All the charmed condition does is (other than once again the target is a "visible" creature in range, rather than a creature you can see). The Charmed condition only give you advantage on CHA role interactions with the target, it's not hard core mind control, merely the help action on certain skill checks against the target. There is none of the 'friendly acquaintance verbiage from Charm Person. The only additional benefit that approaches Mind Control is that they can't attack you while charmed, but with how easy it is to end the spell, that should not be a much of a problem.

Poison Spray is an upgrade for the most part with the increased range and switch to an attack role, but still not all that.

Finally, the one cantrip that needed to be fixed above all others: True Strike. It is certainly an upgrade, but that's hardly a revelation. However, I don't think the fiction and the mechanics of the cantrip really match now. Why the radiant damage? Why could it not just allow you to use your spellcasting stat for a weapon attack, and do regular weapon damage, with scaling introduced to represent the growing insight of the divination on where/when to strike? Is just plain b/p/s damage going to so resisted in 1D&D that we need to change the damage type of everything? Won't spell casters have other means of changing the damage type of their weapon attacks (i.e. a magic weapon or the actual magic weapon spell)?