D&D General Playing to "Win" - The DM's Dilemma

[James Gasik]

I have another question. Do your monsters fight to the death?

Mine often try to flee when they realize there is no chance of victory- this varies based on mental processes and general personality- a cowardly goblin realizes they are in danger and will flee a lot faster than a prideful dragon. A vicious bulette will fight to the death without even giving it a second thought.

Recently, I ran a session where the party faced off against a pair of CR 5 black dragons in their lair. After delivering a savage beatdown, both dragons used all their resources to flee the battle. This really annoyed my players for some reason, even though they left their hoard behind!

"Oh great, so if we take a short rest to heal up, they got like what, 11 or more hit dice they can spend? So at any time on our way back to town, they could ambush us from the air!".

This turned into quite a discussion, as most of their non-hp resources were spent, while when the moment came, both dragons would have their breath weapons online.

Similar debates have happened in the past- if a goblin escapes, he'll alert his allies and the next encounter will be that much harder for it.

It seems my players prefer monsters that fight to the death, even if that means the tide of battle can shift in their favor in the short term!

 

[ezo]

Does this mean in your games, once a PC is knocked unconscious, unless there's another PC with a healing ability in the next two initiative spots, that PC is likely dead?

Yep. In our last session a squad of 10 quicklings were beating the crap out of two of the PCs. (The third could fly, so escaped them; and the fourth had insane stealth so could hide and become unseen.)

Of the two who couldn't "escape" the onslaught, one went down, and with three attacks each, the next quickling double-tapped the down PC while the others moved on to attack the other vulnerable PC.

In this situation, with effectively up to 30 attacks per round against the PCs, spending a couple to kill the PC was a no-brainer.

Or are you just throwing a stray Bonus Action or legendary action attack at them to keep the pressure on?

However, in most situtations where I don't have insanely abundant action economy, it is more this... the stray bonus action or legendary action.

In a battle with a dragon for example, once the dragon takes a PC down, a couple legendary actions or lair action damage will kill them off.

Players should value their characters' lives, and as such any PC at 50% hp is in danger often enough. They should consider disengaging and withdrawing, dodging, or any other means of escape they might have. Trying to stay in the fight at this point is at their own peril.

I have another question. Do your monsters fight to the death?

If this is directed at me...

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I use morale and roll when the encounter is at half-strength. I also judge according to how intelligent the creature is, how likely is their escape, is surrender an option they believe they will live through?

In the last session, I had three encounters:

1. The werebear was nearly down when it had it's turn (round 3) and it disengaged and dropped down in a "surrender" position, enough to make the PCs pause, and it spoke (in hybrid form) calling for mercy. The encounter ended and shifted to the werebear telling the PCs about the Hag, etc.

2. A band of darklings lead by an Elder darking came out of the ruined building at the edge of town and told the PCs to go away. They didn't and battle ensued. A fireball in the opening round took out four darklings so I rolled morale, the rest decided to fight on. After a few more dropped and the elder was defeated, the remaining three tried to run, but were dropped by the PCs with magic and ranged attacks. I had hoped they might take at least one prisoner, but nope.

3. The quicklings were winning easily at first. But their attacks could not harm the werebear, however the others two PCs (mentioned above) were in dire straights. Finally a twinned Haste on the tank PC and werebear turned the tide. The last few quicklings ran and were able to escape the fight. Of course, they will harrass the PCs in later fights...

So, in those three we have surrendered, failed to escape, and escaped. Those who "fought to the death" did so because they (up to that point) felt their side could win.

"Oh great, so if we take a short rest to heal up, they got like what, 11 or more hit dice they can spend? So at any time on our way back to town, they could ambush us from the air!".

This turned into quite a discussion, as most of their non-hp resources were spent, while when the moment came, both dragons would have their breath weapons online.

I don't know if you saw the thread a while back, but a similar encounter happened in my group. The adult black dragon fled, carrying off one of the PCs (whom he dropped to his death), and after a short rest returned to hunt the remaining three PCs; who by excellent planning and luck managed to avoid detection and long rested--at which point the dragon had left the area.

Similar debates have happened in the past- if a goblin escapes, he'll alert his allies and the next encounter will be that much harder for it.

Yep, just as my escaped quicklings will make life difficult for the PCs, reporting back to the Hags further intel and using guerilla-tactics while the PCs are engaged in the next couple encounters.

 

[SLJ]

Yep.
[snip]

Interesting. You must kill a lot of PCs! How often are you TPK'ing your table?

Appreciate the response.

 

[ezo]

Interesting. You must kill a lot of PCs! How often are you TPK'ing your table?

In the current game I can give you specifics (being OCD has some benefits lol!):

We began on May, 10th, last year and have played most weeks since then 35 sessions.
The PCs are 8th level, closing in on 9th this week or next.

1. Session 1, encounter #3, the Paladin dies instantly from a critical inflict wounds spell.
2. Session 9, encounter #38, the Sorcerer dies from a ghost. He was low in HP and went down while the others were dealing with animated statues. A failed death save and the ghost finished him off before anyone could get to him.
3. Session 13, encounter #52, a NPC dies after falling unconscious and by bad luck fell backwards into a lava flow.
4. Session 21, encounter #75, my "DMPC" dies when he failed his save vs a Sea Hag Death Glare. Like encounter #38 a failed death save followed by the Sea Hag holding the unconscious PC captive--trying to get the other PCs to back off--then killed the unconscious PC and fled (hoping the party would stop to aid their friend--two did, the third PC chased down the remaining Hag). This PC was later raised by a powerful cleric who set the party on their next quest as payment.
5. Session 25, encounter #92, another Paladin dies after being carried away by the adult black dragon. The only way the party avoided the TPK after the short rest was successfully avoiding the hunting dragon.
6. Session 30, encounter #97, the Wizard dies when accidentally confronting the "boss" of an adventure by upcasted Witch Bolt. The party was in the village, split up into pairs, and asking around when the boss-caster knew the jig was up and acted, hoping to take out both PCs. The rogue managed to escape and gather the other PCs, but the boss-caster had fled by then, but double-tapped the downed Wizard before fleeing.
7. Session 33, encounter #104, the Warlock is surrounded and killed by gnolls during a massive ambush which nearly resulted in a TPK (during an escort mission). Two PCs escaped with the protected "ladies" due to another PC's efforts to keep the remaining gnolls occupied before his capture. Warlock was later raised after one of the escaped PCs helped the captured one also escape.
8. Session 35, encounter #110, the Warlock (again) dies when overrun by quicklings. Again, not escaping or acting defensively was the issue.

#1 was bad luck. It happens at 1st-level.
#2 was the player pressing is luck. He should have pulled back to the others instead of allowing himself to become isolated.
#3 was also bad luck. A fireball took out the NPC, and only a 1 in 4 chance he fell backwards into the lava.
#4 was also bad luck. It was just a DC 11 save and even with "Favored by the Gods" (which rolled low, only +3) I only needed a 3 or better to save. It was two saves (two Hags) and I made one, rolled a 2 on the other.
#5 was due to the paladin nova-ing on the dragon, the dragon preceiving it as the greatest threat. The paladin had gone down, but the healer kept bringing him back up, so the last time the Paladin went down the dragon grabbed him and flew off. The drop from 100+ feet and a failed death save followed. The player should have pulled the Paladin back, but insisted on staying on the offense... I don't know if that would have saved the PC or not.
#6 was due to the party splitting up and asking the boss the question which led to them being revealed as the bad guy. If the party was together, the boss would have fled instead of trying to fight first.
#7 was again due to the player not pulling back and escaping. He had once, but moved forward instead and was surrounded again... Another PC mananged to get him out and back to the wagon, but we didn't have time to revivify him or the "ladies" would have likely been captured. Trying to take the one "extra round" to bring that PC back could have easily led to the others all dying and the rogue along escaping...
#8 was the PC not going defensive, etc. so went down and was killed.

#2, #5, #7, and #8 are all the same player. He insists on staying in the fight. Two players have never lost a PC, although they've both gone to 0 a couple times (but one is a Half-Orc who used relentless endurance,

So, we've never had a TPK yet, but the dragon encounter and the gnoll ambush were both close! The upcoming Hag Coven will likely be a TPK or close to it.

For the record, #6 (boss-caster), #7 (Gnoll swarm), #8 (quicklings) all had some form of "double-tap" to make sure the PCs stayed down. However, numbers 2, 4, and 5 combined a PC failing a death save and some action by the enemy contributing to the PC death.

Overall, I've run about a dozen 5E campaigns and only TPK'd the group once. Now, obviously I have individual PCs die...

Appreciate the response.

My pleasure. I run games which can certainly be deadly, but with 110 combats so far, losing a handful of PCs (and a couple NPC or DMPC) doesn't seem too much IMO. The bulk of my encounters are hard, with an even mix of moderate and deadly, and then few (but even) mixture of easy and deadly+.

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

Interesting. You must kill a lot of PCs! How often are you TPK'ing your table?

Appreciate the response.

If the players bite off more than they can chew?

"I've sent boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it; I felt I... owed it to them." - Judge Smails, Caddyshack

 

[Thomas Shey]

I have creatures double-tap fallen PCs all the time, especially if it is something they can get away with via a bonus action or legendary action.

I was talking about the other way around, but...

Intelligent creatures in fantasy game with magical healing and such will recognize the threat of a downed PC getting back into the fight. With a single hit as a critical failed death save, most of the time one hit will tip the odds in favor of that PC staying down.

Except, even in a D&D world, many intelligent entities may have never seen a magical healer. Just because they're endemic in PC groups doesn't mean they're common.

 

[ezo]

Except, even in a D&D world, many intelligent entities may have never seen a magical healer. Just because they're endemic in PC groups doesn't mean they're common.

If you believe this we have very different views of what typical D&D worlds (/games) are like.

Most published adventures, from TSR through WotC, have healers, healing potions, etc. in most towns and even villages. Even humanoid adversaries can have shamans or witch doctors or priests who can cure wounds (or inflict them).

Every, and I mean literally every, game I have ever played in has these things available and well-known of, even if expensive beyond what commoners could ever manage.

Magic, including healing magic, is well known in D&D worlds IME, and if an intelligent foes sees an injured enemy drop, just to rise again after being "magicked" back into the fight, will find an extra hit or two might lessen the chances of that injured dropped enemy from getting back into the fight.

YMMV certainly, but the bolded part is certainly false in D&D worlds I've experienced. Whether it is the commoners watching the local priest or acolyte even in procession before a service or seeing an herbalist selling a healing potion or a PC even casting a spell, MOST intelligent entities HAVE seen magical healers IMO.

 

[TheSword]

I used to avoid targeting a single player, but now I am more comfortable doing it. I usually do it when logical as a response to a player doing something overwhelming themselves.

 

[Mort]

I used to avoid targeting a single player, but now I am more comfortable doing it. I usually do it when logical as a response to a player doing something overwhelming themselves.

Yeah, sometimes it's just the logical consequence.

Group (around 3rd level) was squaring off against hobgoblin troops. They (the hobgoblins) had proven quite savvy and proficient in close quarters AND in ranged combat.

The player playing a wizard PC stated he wanted to get a good look over the battlefield, cast levitate, and, in full view, floated above everyone. What happened next was completely predictable as the wizard got pin-cushioned.

 

[Piperken]

I don't know about "teachable moments" but I certainly hope my players learn from their mistakes.

They try to avoid combat when possible, but often times it simply isn't. What I regret more than anything is their lack of insight sometimes in taking prisoners. The newer players haven't learned that prisoners can lead to intelligence into the enemy camp (so to say) which can be very beneficial.

Yes, definitely!

At the moment teachable moments are things like:

• In the case of D&D with a grid map, with a small square room and perhaps two exits? Which squares are the ones to place Characters X & Y to prevent monsters from escaping (via triggering attack of opportunity).
• What does it mean in combat that a monster or an npc has a reach of 10 feet (or more)? How might that change the party's approach?
• How to deal with enemies that can fly out of melee range, and are in an environment where they can do so easily?