Planescape Planescape - what would you like to see?

[I'm A Banana]

IIRC you are an advocate for classes customized to the campaign / campaign setting, right? So your perspective entirely makes sense. At the same time it assumes you have a group of players who are:

(A) Willing to invest minimal of energy to grasp the feel of the setting before play (for Planescape it is cynical worldliness), and able to incorporate that into their character creation and roleplaying.

Yeah, and there's sort of two aspects of this. First, I don't think this needs to be especially hard -- just as the playtest characters have traits/flaws/bonds/racial info/backgrounds/etc. that link them specifically to FR, the same can exist for PS. If a player is wiling to invest some minimal energy in grasping what an Acolyte of Oghma or a Sun Elf is, then they should be able to invest some minimal energy in grasping what a Godsman or a Bariaur is. The carrot extended to encourage this is that it plays into your character abilities -- the cool things your character can do key into the race and faction. In the example, if you grab Second Wind from the Fated, this ties you into the setting explicitly: someone taught you how to do this, because it reflects a belief that they share with your character. But even backgrounds are part of this.

The second aspect is that players who aren't willing to invest any real energy in incorporating a different setting into their character aren't necessarily a great fit for a different setting. The presumption for a group sitting down to play Planescape (or any other setting) has to be "You WANT to try this." If they don't want to try it, that's fine, but there's no way any set of setting rules is going to sell an experience you don't want, and by trying to be "everything to everyone," it just waters down the setting. It doesn't matter how delicious that bacon is, a vegetarian just ain't really interested. And tofu bacon is not the same thing, we can all agree.

(B) Interested in going outside classic fantasy tropes of "drunk dwarf" or "kleptomaniac halfling thief." The classics are classic for a reason, even if not particularly imaginative.

Yeah, I don't have a major problem with saying that people who are only interested in the classic fantasy tropes probably won't be interested in Planescape. PS isn't about those classic fantasy tropes, at least not without tweaking and mutating and examining them, just like how Dark Sun isn't about happy farming peasants and Ravenloft isn't about saving the day.

PS has its own tropes, of course -- the outcast Tiefling with a chip on her shoulder, the freedom-loving Bariaur, the adventuresome Sensate, the scholarly Guvner, etc. It has its own style and atmosphere that can drive character hooks. They serve the same function of shunting various personality traits into your RP directly. But like I pointed out above, someone who only wants generic fantasy probably isn't someone who is going to groove on Planescape, and there's no point in making a watered-down substitute to appeal to them. It's OK -- not everyone HAS to groove on PS. But I wouldn't want a PS that felt like it had to cater to people who weren't really interested in it anyway.

It might sound like I'm being hard on players, but the fact of the matter is there are DMs who just don't understand Planescape either. I think the difference in our perspectives might be you see Planescape as another setting just like Ravenloft or Dark Sun, whereas I see it as something radically different in that it can bridge multiple worlds. Even in the original box there were options for getting a party of prime PCs to the planes and, in Planewalkers Handbook, for running mixed prime/planar campaign.

I don't think bridging worlds is all that unique, though. You can smash Eberron into the Forgotten Realms (as D&D has done), or let a thri-kreen pop up in Ravenloft or whatever if you want. You don't need PS for that, just a DM who wants to make a bit of a mess.

The thing that PS does that is unique and special is its setting-specific stuff, the stuff that it doesn't share with any other world, the stuff that lets a thri-kreen and a warforged pop up and both be defined by something more than their home settings. It gives a context for that world-smashing that is bigger than the sum of two parts.

Characters from other worlds have a place in PS, but their role as Planescape characters should trump their role in their original world. What faction does the thri-kreen join? What does the warforged believe about free will? Does a Tinker Gnome on Mechanus defy its ordered nature? And these characters should still be rarer than the planar characters. Just like running a campaign of all fighters omits a lot of diversity in the game, running a PS campaign made up entirely of prime characters ignores a lot of what makes the game interesting.

We both agree that Planescape (much like other settings) needs to be experienced thru play; actually I would say especially Planescape! Because of its strangeness. Even players who come in with well conceived PCs still are finding their character's identity/voice/beliefs during those first few levels. Does it really matter if they're prime, planar, or even excepional petitioners? For me Planescape's themes are found in the adventures which I would argue are where emphasis should be placed. Personally "Umbra" (Dungeon 55) is one of the best PS adventures written and I could see that largely working for any sort of PCs.

The moment you're asking the drunken dwarf to define their beliefs and question their assumptions, you're turning them into a PS character -- a planar adventurer. That drunken dwarf is going to belong to a faction (maybe the Sensates?) and is going to know some good pubs in Sigil, and is going to know what they say about the Lady of Pain and is going to know why he's won't be happy in dwarven paradise where there are rivers of ale better than the finest dwarven ale and is going to not be that impressed with the bacchae.

Might as well plug that into the character creation so I don't have to go through the ritual of running some "You fell down a well and wound up in the Oceanus, guys!" excuse-to-actually-play-PLANESCAPE quest.

Btw I enjoyed your thoughts on interpreting Second Wind thru the faction lens!

Thanks! I think that's the kind of thing that makes it easy to pick up the new tropes and archetypes present in PS (and is likely applicable to many settings). If every proficiency your character has or ability your character possesses comes from *somewhere* in the setting (as opposed to just happening spontaneously within a character who simply gains a level), it forms a pretty tight connection between that ability and what setting elements relate to that ability.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Saying the Blood War ended in 4e is a bit disingenuous. Manual of the Planes outright says the war has lulls and peaks in the fighting and simply describes the current situation as a cold war rather than an all-out multi-battlefront armed conflict. Devils and demons in 4e still regard each other with hostility and intense rivalry, they just focus that on competing for influence in the mortal world. For the moment, demon lords feud among themselves and don't have enough of a unified front to fight the Nine Hells, and Asmodeus is waiting to make a decisive blow to renew the war (he doesn't want to unite the demon lords in opposition to him). As great as Hellnound was and as much as I like the Blood War, the 4e version has tons of possibility for gaming goodness!

Thanks for the info!

It seems that Shemeska and Wolfskin are also Clueless about 4e.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

When you play Dark Sun, you don't play characters from a normal world thrust into Athas. When you play Forgotten Realms, you're not Greyhawk characters that took a wrong turn. Dragonlance isn't about taking characters from Ravenloft and tossing them into Krynn. Arguably, even Ravenloft itself, as a campaign setting (as opposed to an adventure setting, which it also has been) is primarily about people native to the Mists, not people dragged in. When you play a campaign setting, you play characters native to that setting, not characters from some other setting pulled into it.

If we weren't talking about PS (or Spelljammer), I'd agree with you 100%. If we were talking about 'real world people stumble through a portal into Sigil,' I'd agree with you 100%. But I think that Planescape's position as a bridge between infinite worlds is a great feature, and so I see no downside to leveraging that feature when it comes to players who'd rather learn the setting through play.

Of course PS also supports all-planar parties from the very start, and I think that faction-unique bennies could be a great carrot for getting players into the setting during chargen, but again I see no reason to avoid plot hooks for prime characters as well. ("You stumble through the magical portal into a scene that is at once familiar and strange -- a busy tavern with all manner of odd creatures. One of them offers you a reward to [insert adventure plot].")

PS DMs should make sure that each player has a general idea of what PS is about -- beliefs, exploration, not just a planar dungeon-crawl, etc.. But IME, expecting every player to be gung-ho enough about any given setting to read about it is just asking for disappointment. Maybe you're lucky enough to have a gung-ho group, though, or have enough gamers in your area that you can turn down the ones who don't want to do 'homework.'

But hey, this is all academic anyway, until 5e actually resurrects PS.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

All I want is weird art, tons of slang, and more of the kookiness in every page. Pretty much just more of the exact same. Planescape is amazing to me in every way.

What I wouldn't give for more DiTerlizzi artwork in D&D...

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think that Planescape's position as a bridge between infinite worlds is a great feature, and so I see no downside to leveraging that feature when it comes to players who'd rather learn the setting through play.

So the benefit I see from that feature is that it encourages a "play whatever you want" vibe. Talking dog? Intelligent sword? Tinker gnome? Half-giant? Ninja? They can all appear in PS as characters because they're all part of the infinite multiverse! This is a cool thing.

I see no reason that an emphasis on planar characters would disrupt that vibe, simply contextualize it and focus it on the setting's unique benefits. What faction does your talking dog join? Why isn't your Ninja just hanging out in paradise? What does your half-giant's changeable alignment say about their view of the world? How does your intelligent sword separate truth from lies? These things should be figured out during character creation.

And the planar races are something of a shortcut to that. Githerzerai, bariaur, tieflings, etc. all sort of cut to the quick of it so you don't always have to figure out if your weird critter loves cooperation or prefers to go it alone.

Point is that Planescape characters are planar characters, regardless of their origins. This means they are powered by belief, they aren't impressed by infinity, they work out of Sigil, etc. Their ties to the planar environment are tighter than their ties to Dark Sun, Feudal Japan, Krynn, the Forge of Moradin, or whatever.

I see no reason to avoid plot hooks for prime characters as well. ("You stumble through the magical portal into a scene that is at once familiar and strange -- a busy tavern with all manner of odd creatures. One of them offers you a reward to [insert adventure plot].")

The reason to avoid it is because while this is a perfectly fine adventure hook for normal D&D characters and totally great for one character (and it doesn't need to be ignored), it misses the unique parts of PS as a campaign setting and kind of turns it into just another D&D adventure, but in a weird environment. Which is fine, but not really what makes PS special, since you can do that anywhere else, too. Hell, that describes the LotR scene in Bree pretty well, no planar jump required. So it just leaves the unique appeal of the setting on the table. Which is under-selling it, IMO.

What I want from a PS setting -- or any D&D setting, really -- is the chance to do things that I really couldn't do outside of that setting. That's where the emphasis should be, IMO -- in the reasons you play THIS setting instead of some other setting. I can run "you're new to a foreign land and things are weird" in ANY setting. It's not special to PS. So it I don't think it needs to steal the spotlight.

PS DMs should make sure that each player has a general idea of what PS is about -- beliefs, exploration, not just a planar dungeon-crawl, etc.. But IME, expecting every player to be gung-ho enough about any given setting to read about it is just asking for disappointment. Maybe you're lucky enough to have a gung-ho group, though, or have enough gamers in your area that you can turn down the ones who don't want to do 'homework.'

I don't think they do need to read about it, at least not independent of making a character for it.

Like, imagine the 5e starter set characters, but in Planescape. At the most basic level, imagine, say, factions-as-background:

The Harmonium ("Hardheads")
Proficiency: You gain proficiecny in Persuasion and Intimidation
Lets Work Together: You can use the Charm Person spell once per day.
Notary: You serve the Harmonium as a guard on the streets of Sigil, keeping the peace and making sure no one causes trouble. You have access to the City Barracks in the Lady's Ward, where you can sleep and eat for free, access to the faction's library of laws, poetry, and approved fiction, and train in the immense courtyard. You also have access to the records the Harmonium keeps about arrests they've made and the faction's history. You are also welcome in the stronghold of Melodia, on Buxenus (the second layer of Arcadia), where you underwent training, and where the entire town is run according to the Harmonium way of peace and harmony. You know of a permanent portal near the Barracks that will get you there (and its key).
Personal Goal: [INSERT PLOT HOOK HERE]
​

...imagine the write-up of race on those character sheets describing a PS race. Imagine the class write-up describing perhaps a faction instead...

The Harmonium ("Hardheads")
The Harmonium believe that a perfect utopia is one where everyone works together for the benefit of all, and they work toward this utopic society on the streets of Sigil, enforcing the laws passed by the Council by arresting lawbreakers and sending them to be judged and sentenced. They are a militaristic organization that views its members as soldiers, and trains them in the use of iconic red armor, and in the use of weapons, including nonlethal weapons like nets and mancatchers. They also train their members in the power of words, invoked with authority, which gives their higher-ranked members the ability to force others to obey them...for their own good, of course.
​

That's not much reading to know a lot about your place in the setting and the archetype you should be embodying! You'd have to do just as much to understand any background or class description, and, like backgrounds/classes, you get to do stuff with it.

But hey, this is all academic anyway, until 5e actually resurrects PS.

Yar, and I've probably got a bit of a unique perspective on settings in general, because I would much much rather any setting just be more true to itself and not worry about putting off people who aren't into that than to have them try to bend and shape to be friends with everybody. It's like high school, man, no one's going to like you if you don't have the confidence to truly be yourself.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

So the benefit I see from that feature is that it encourages a "play whatever you want" vibe...I see no reason that an emphasis on planar characters would disrupt that vibe...

Wait, what exactly do you think that Quickleaf and I are advocating? I'm getting a strong sense that we're talking past each other, so I'm just going to lay out how I'm envisioning a good flexible PS intro adventure:

• Chargen allows for both planar and prime characters. Bennies for being faction members, whatever.
• The intro adventure's plot hook is simple: The PCs are pulled into some plane, say I dunno, Mechanus by some quirky source, say a slightly mad conjurer, and the party has to figure out how to escape. If they try to hack their way out, they quickly learn that this is a problem which violence does not solve.
• The details aren't important to this discussion. What's important is throwing a group of prime and/or planar PCs into a situation in which they have to work together, while getting a taste of the PS experience.
• The intro adventure ends with the PCs finding a portal and key, which lands them in Sigil. The planar characters are probably all "Eh, what's new?" while the prime characters are now on their way to becoming planars. Further adventures involve fun with factions, more PS themes, and opportunities for prime-turned-planar PCs to join any of the factions.

Feel free to chime in, Quickleaf, if I've forgotten something or if I've misrepresented your thoughts!

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks for the info!

It seems that Shemeska and Wolfskin are also Clueless about 4e.

Well, I wouldn't say that. Todd ( [MENTION=11697]Shemeska[/MENTION] ) is one of the most well-versed in Planescape lore fellas on these boards, and perhaps on the Internetz!

I think it's easy to rag on 4e for story changes it made that differ so much from older editions. Still, there's lots of cool story bits there if one is willing to set aside that knee-jerk reaction.

So the benefit I see from that feature is that it encourages a "play whatever you want" vibe. Talking dog? Intelligent sword? Tinker gnome? Half-giant? Ninja? They can all appear in PS as characters because they're all part of the infinite multiverse! This is a cool thing. 

I see no reason that an emphasis on planar characters would disrupt that vibe, simply contextualize it and focus it on the setting's unique benefits. What faction does your talking dog join? Why isn't your Ninja just hanging out in paradise? What does your half-giant's changeable alignment say about their view of the world? How does your intelligent sword separate truth from lies? These things should be figured out during character creation.

I love some of these examples More foo dog PCs & intelligent dancing sword PCs are a good thing! Haha.

Point is that Planescape characters are planar characters, regardless of their origins. This means they are powered by belief, they aren't impressed by infinity, they work out of Sigil, etc...(snip)

I can run "you're new to a foreign land and things are weird" in ANY setting. It's not special to PS. So it I don't think it needs to steal the spotlight.

I suspect that "cynical worldliness" and "power of belief" are a bit more elusive to grasp for players than standard D&D themes. I think that's why the core PS box set up the campaign as friendly to prime PCs stepping thru that first portal to Sigil. The idea is the players discover the setting as their characters do. And since PS is so different from standard pseudo-medieval European fantasy, there is a lot to learn. Not saying this the right way or the wrong way; I can see why the writers set it up that way though. I think of levels 1-3 in PS especially as the "learning the setting" levels, which in PS equates to the "figuring out where I stand philosophically" levels.

But I definitely hear your point that there is so much unique richness to the setting that should be the focus rather than standard D&D fare. Totally agree with you there.

Like, imagine the 5e starter set characters, but in Planescape. At the most basic level, imagine, say, factions-as-background:

The Harmonium ("Hardheads")
Proficiency: You gain proficiecny in Persuasion and Intimidation
Lets Work Together: You can use the Charm Person spell once per day.
Notary: You serve the Harmonium as a guard on the streets of Sigil, keeping the peace and making sure no one causes trouble. You have access to the City Barracks in the Lady's Ward, where you can sleep and eat for free, access to the faction's library of laws, poetry, and approved fiction, and train in the immense courtyard. You also have access to the records the Harmonium keeps about arrests they've made and the faction's history. You are also welcome in the stronghold of Melodia, on Buxenus (the second layer of Arcadia), where you underwent training, and where the entire town is run according to the Harmonium way of peace and harmony. You know of a permanent portal near the Barracks that will get you there (and its key).
Personal Goal: [INSERT PLOT HOOK HERE] 
​

...imagine the write-up of race on those character sheets describing a PS race. Imagine the class write-up describing perhaps a faction instead...

The Harmonium ("Hardheads")
The Harmonium believe that a perfect utopia is one where everyone works together for the benefit of all, and they work toward this utopic society on the streets of Sigil, enforcing the laws passed by the Council by arresting lawbreakers and sending them to be judged and sentenced. They are a militaristic organization that views its members as soldiers, and trains them in the use of iconic red armor, and in the use of weapons, including nonlethal weapons like nets and mancatchers. They also train their members in the power of words, invoked with authority, which gives their higher-ranked members the ability to force others to obey them...for their own good, of course. 
​

That's not much reading to know a lot about your place in the setting and the archetype you should be embodying! You'd have to do just as much to understand any background or class description, and, like backgrounds/classes, you get to do stuff with it.

What a great writeup! It does assume the game centers around Sigil, that the player knows about gate keys for portals, and about the planes & their layers, but you've managed to keep it far simpler than I imagined.

I guess I've always seen PS as having a slightly more "emergent play" style built in, but you've definitely got me reconsidering that...

Wait, what exactly do you think that Quickleaf and I are advocating? I'm getting a strong sense that we're talking past each other, so I'm just going to lay out how I'm envisioning a good flexible PS intro adventure:

• Chargen allows for both planar and prime characters. Bennies for being faction members, whatever.
• The intro adventure's plot hook is simple: The PCs are pulled into some plane, say I dunno, Mechanus by some quirky source, say a slightly mad conjurer, and the party has to figure out how to escape. If they try to hack their way out, they quickly learn that this is a problem which violence does not solve.
• The details aren't important to this discussion. What's important is throwing a group of prime and/or planar PCs into a situation in which they have to work together, while getting a taste of the PS experience.
• The intro adventure ends with the PCs finding a portal and key, which lands them in Sigil. The planar characters are probably all "Eh, what's new?" while the prime characters are now on their way to becoming planars. Further adventures involve fun with factions, more PS themes, and opportunities for prime-turned-planar PCs to join any of the factions.

Feel free to chime in, Quickleaf, if I've forgotten something or if I've misrepresented your thoughts!

Yeah, that's a rough example of the sort of starter adventure I was envisioning. Thanks for laying it out Tequila Sunrise

I think maybe what [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] is suggesting is a starting point after something like that occurred to get the primes onto the planes off-screen. IOW the action/adventure begins with the primes already on the planes, integrating into Sigil, and starting to make sense of things...so they skip over that totally #%@! bewildered Clueless phase, and jump right into the thick of conflicting beliefs and other PS themes.

Actually, I would love to see your outline for an ideal PS starter adventure Kamikaze Midget! I'll work up my own outline too, and the 3 of us can compare notes and see where we diverge.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Wait, what exactly do you think that Quickleaf and I are advocating? I'm getting a strong sense that we're talking past each other

I just figured we were quibbling over the tone some hypothetical re-launched setting might have (me: focused on planar characters; you/quickleaf: not necessarily focused on planar characters).

Chargen allows for both planar and prime characters. Bennies for being faction members, whatever.

I'd just change this slightly: chargen allows for planar characters of any origin, and maybe has one option for someone who wants to play a Clueless character.

Which is to say: if you want to play a drunk dwarf, you play a drunk dwarf who is either a planewalker -- based out of Sigil, belonging to a faction, knowledgable about the basics of planar travel and locations -- or a drunk dwarf who is the one person in the party ignorant of the planes and going to discover them (a Clueless character).

The intro adventure's plot hook is simple: The PCs are pulled into some plane, say I dunno, Mechanus by some quirky source, say a slightly mad conjurer, and the party has to figure out how to escape. If they try to hack their way out, they quickly learn that this is a problem which violence does not solve.

I'd prefer it not to be a pull, but rather a lure.

"You suddenly wind up in a strange land, and the goal is to escape! Adventures happen while you do!" is an adventure you could do anywhere.

A game that leverages PS's more distinct feel would, I think, be a deliberate thing like

A tanar'ri general -- a marilith -- is visiting Sigil, and looking to hire planewalkers. It seems her troops keep disappearing in the midst of combat, being conjured out of the Blood War battlefield and onto the plane of Mechanus at the behest of a mad conjurer, and she's looking to hire some people who will know how to get to that mage and stop it, because she is sick of half of her fighting force going suddenly missing. When the party arrives to the scene of mechanical carnage, they learn that the conjurer is a Xaositect trying to simply wreck as much of Mechanus as possible while he can, using some strangely augmented summoning skills to do so. While going up against half a tanar'ri army would likely be suicide, the party can learn about the artifact that allows him to summon so many demons at once -- an item that was placed into the Xaositect's hands by devils, who designed it to call away parts of an opposing demonic force at key moments. The devil who ensured that the Xaositect came to possess this item is present in Mechanus as well, and will certainly want to make sure this Xaositect continues his rampage, for the betterment of devils everywhere. If the Xaositect knew he was playing into a devilish plot, would he want to abandon his rampage? Or would he believe his rampage across Mechanus was for the greater Chaos, even if the devils happened to beneft? And what about the Modrons trying to stop the rampage -- are they going come down hard on the forces of Chaos, or do they side with the devils and actually encourage the massacre, knowing that a win for the devils is a win for Law? To accomplish the goal of stopping the conjurer and getting paid, the party must convince the Xaositect and the Modrons to set aside their deep, deep differences long enough to stop being pawns in the devils' game. Of course, maybe they decide to thwart the devil by allying with the Modrons to direct the mad conjurer into Hell...or maybe they side with the Devil and the Modrons, protecting the mad conjurer as the annoyed Marilith comes to deal with the situation herself, with some hired guns...
​

The emphasis here is on what people believe to be true, what people do to act according to their beliefs, and how there's no easy answer about what one OUGHT to do.

The details aren't important to this discussion. What's important is throwing a group of prime and/or planar PCs into a situation in which they have to work together, while getting a taste of the PS experience.

Yeah, I think that's kind of where the proposed adventure fails, because I don't think "You're suddenly someplace weird and dangerous, your goal is to escape!" is a particularly PS-unique experience. While that can and does happen in PS, I don't think it is an example what makes the setting unusual and interesting, it doesn't highlight why you'd play PS as opposed to any other setting. Someone who crashes their airship in Eberron or someone who falls into an old ruin in FR or someone present in a town that is suddenly flooded or earthquaked' or dragon-invaded gets the same basic "Oh no unexpected thing to deal with and restore normalcy!" adventure structure. PS can tell stories that you can't tell in other settings, too, and I'd prefer to highlight that.

The intro adventure ends with the PCs finding a portal and key, which lands them in Sigil. The planar characters are probably all "Eh, what's new?" while the prime characters are now on their way to becoming planars. Further adventures involve fun with factions, more PS themes, and opportunities for prime-turned-planar PCs to join any of the factions.

See, I think that if the goal is to have a PS campaign, as opposed to another sort of campaign with planar adventuring in it, having half the party want to go back to their home world and wail on goblins again deflates it. I'd rather have characters with strong ties to the PLANESCAPE setting as the default baseline, which means treating the Clueless planar first-timers like a normal D&D game might treat a character who plays a farmer fresh off the turnip truck -- a character given context by the fact that the other party members aren't that kind of character.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm able to put a finger on something that was eluding me...

I've been thinking a lot about the first game session and how the PCs meet/already know each other. We all know the cliches (hired by party X, you all meet in a tavern, you wake up in a dungeo cell with no memory). I was trying to come up with interesting ways to start off a Planescape game that could be included in a published product (rather than a home game where the DM could just work with the players to figure out how they know each other).

My answer, similar to your answer Tequila, was to play out the meeting of the party members. Since that would involve potentially both prime and planar characters, then it had to be some trans-planar event.

Your answer, Kamikaze Midget, was to gloss over how the PCs know each other (or let each group figure out their own answer) and jump right into getting hired. Bam! You are a group. A Marilith is hiring you. That's all you need to know.

 

[Shemeska]

Thanks for the info!

It seems that Shemeska and Wolfskin are also Clueless about 4e.

Well that's a bit harsh, given that I got paid for a 4e planar piece in Dungeon #205.

I take issue with many of the design decisions, but I'm rather familiar with the material.

My earlier answer about the Blood War ending in 4e is technically correct, if overly brief. Ending/hiatus doesn't preclude it starting right back up again.