D&D (2024) PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

[Zardnaar]

Not clear where the d4 is coming from? Assuming you mean it to be tavern brawler, but that doesn’t add d4 damage it replaces your normal unarmed damage with a d4.

Also you have the normal bonus action issues of trying to bonus action hunters mark and bonus action attack. Rough estimate is that typically you’ll lose a bonus action to hunters mark every other turn, though it’s highly encounter dependent.

My bad there's two builds there and I mixed them up.

It's hand crossbow+sharpshooter levels of damage later on (10-12) and very good 5/6. 3 then 5 attacks depending on nick or unarmed. 6 around when fighter gets 3 (4 with nick tbf).

Depends if you splash for ranger or take weapon mastery feat.

 

[Stormonu]

My fireball comment was never about how effective it was. More of a comment that with a martial build it's difficult (if not impossible) to strike that many targets for a decent chunk of damage, whereas the wizard can offhand hit up to a score of opponents with a single spell.

It is a bit annoying, however, that splitting attacks over multiple targets tends to be subpar to focus-firing on a single target. I wish the system had some better payoff for fending off multiple attackers over "absolutely fine until dead" play.

 

[clearstream]

It's also up to the DM to determine whether you can grapple then drag someone through spike growth without moving through it yourself. I, for one, wouldn't allow it.

That seems reasonable, and each foot moved will cost three, so you could inflict on you both 4d4 damage. The reason it costs three is that dragging costs +1'/1' while Spike Growth is making the terrain "difficult". That's assuming the character is strong enough (or the grappled light enough) that they can make way at all.

A grappler can "drag" you, which to me implies that they move ahead of you and pull you after them. Assuming you both start outside the area, it seems they are in for 4d4 and you 2d4 on the first turn. In that same turn, a second character can take 4d4 damage to set themselves up to double-drag you in subsequent turns. In turn two, both grapplers will take 4d4 and you will take 8d4. Assuming all goes to plan.

Per the above, grappler A has by end of turn 2 taken 8d4, grappler B 8d4, and you, the grappled, 10d4. That could be improved by casting the spell with the intended grapplers already in their ideal positions within it, which would halve the damage they take. Still, it's 8d4 to party at the cost of a level 2 spell slot, a character concentrating, and two characters' movement and actions, for 10d4 to the grappled.

At a guess, the ploy will be more powerful in TotM where it's not so obvious how much damage grapplers must accept in order to drag their victim through the area. In conclusion, following RAW seems to entail

Account for encumbrance (weight of dragged)​

Account for movement costs (3'/1')​

Give meaning to "drag"​

Assume draggers must move through the area themselves (more important to TotM, as a grid will plainly show it)​

 

[clearstream]

Specifically, I read the grappling rules as designed to enable one creature to drag another, not to further limit dragging beyond the speed restrictions on dragging inert objects. Far from enabling dragging, by applying both movement limitations simultaneously, one average human (carry capacity 150 lbs., weight 165 lbs., 30' speed) could only drag another average human 5' per round, and that only if they take the Dash action. That the average case would fail to allow practically useful or even vaguely realistic dragging speeds I see as further evidence that the rules are in conflict. If dragging any meaningful distance was indeed restricted only to strong characters dragging lighter creatures, I think the grappling rules would have been written in a way to make that additional limitation clear, rather than presenting the grappling rules as limited only by creature size and relying on readers to infer that the general weight limitations for dragging still apply.

I feel that when I'm optimising - intentionally seeking ways to exploit RAW - I must give RAW greatest weight. Otherwise, I might as well simply decide what I want characters to be able to do to foes with their gambits, seeing as I'm no longer following the actual wordings.

The actual wordings do not say the things you talk about. They say that the Spike Growth terrain is difficult (+1'/1') that dragging a grappled creature adds a movement cost (+1'/1') and that your Speed will be 5' if you are overburdened. In most cases, these rules can still be used by players to their advantage. They can choose the Grappler feat. They can choose Goliath species. They can choose to have a high Strength.

That said, it's right to interpret the rules to support the kinds of stories your players want to tell at your table. I don't myself see enough compelling in weak characters dragging heavy creatures through difficult terrain to mind if "dragging any meaningful distance was indeed restricted only to strong characters dragging lighter creatures". RAW also seems to make picking Grappler, Goliath or high Strength more worthwhile for players who have that sort of thing in mind: they get to stand out.

 

[Zardnaar]

That seems reasonable, and each foot moved will cost three, so you could inflict on you both 4d4 damage. The reason it costs three is that dragging costs +1'/1' while Spike Growth is making the terrain "difficult". That's assuming the character is strong enough (or the grappled light enough) that they can make way at all.

A grappler can "drag" you, which to me implies that they move ahead of you and pull you after them. Assuming you both start outside the area, it seems they are in for 4d4 and you 2d4 on the first turn. In that same turn, a second character can take 4d4 damage to set themselves up to double-drag you in subsequent turns. In turn two, both grapplers will take 4d4 and you will take 8d4. Assuming all goes to plan.

Per the above, grappler A has by end of turn 2 taken 8d4, grappler B 8d4, and you, the grappled, 10d4. That could be improved by casting the spell with the intended grapplers already in their ideal positions within it, which would halve the damage they take. Still, it's 8d4 to party at the cost of a level 2 spell slot, a character concentrating, and two characters' movement and actions, for 10d4 to the grappled.

At a guess, the ploy will be more powerful in TotM where it's not so obvious how much damage grapplers must accept in order to drag their victim through the area. In conclusion, following RAW seems to entail

Account for encumbrance (weight of dragged)​

Account for movement costs (3'/1')​

Give meaning to "drag"​

Assume draggers must move through the area themselves (more important to TotM, as a grid will plainly show it)​

You drag them along the edge of the spike growth. They're in it. You are not.

 

[clearstream]

You drag them along the edge of the spike growth. They're in it. You are not.

It sounds like you would allow a drag to be beside rather than behind you. If so, assuming everyone starts ideally placed, is sufficiently strong, and consistently lands their grapples, then two characters can safely perform a fierce drag every other round. They end each round apart so must reposition, and Ready doesn't allow a character to prepare both an Attack and a Dash.

 

[Zardnaar]

It sounds like you would allow a drag to be beside rather than behind you. If so, assuming everyone starts ideally placed, is sufficiently strong, and consistently lands their grapples, then two characters can safely perform a fierce drag every other round. They end each turn apart so must reposition, and Ready doesn't allow a character to prepare both an Attack and a Dash.

Well sells such as longstrider exist.

Even with a 30 ft movement it's 12d4 damage with a level 2 spell.

Athletic rolls are often trivial. It'd a variant of the shield master from 2014. Advantage, expertise etc on athletics.

Moon Druids can wild shape into bears or whatever.

There's also a lot of force movement effects in game to use as well.

So yes I have seen athletics build in 5E. This is just chang g what you're doing with it. Hell had a goliath shield master fighter 6 weeks ago.

We were bowling giants over 2015.

 

[pukunui]

You drag them along the edge of the spike growth. They're in it. You are not.

But see that's a matter of interpretation. I would argue that you can't drag someone next to you. You pull them along behind you, which means they will only go where you go. If you want them to go into the spike growth area, then you have to go through it too. That is how I would rule it at my table if anyone were to try it.

 

[Zardnaar]

But see that's a matter of interpretation. I would argue that you can't drag someone next to you. You pull them along behind you, which means they will only go where you go. If you want them to go into the spike growth area, then you have to go through it to. That is how I would rule it at my table if anyone were to try it.

RAW you just impose the condition. You don't enter their space they don't enter yours. Page 367

Grappler feat you can move around at your full speed.

Cheese grater sushi. The spike growth is the cheese grater. Gets hilarious with haste. 24d4 damage 30d4 with longstrider.

Goliath can also get advantage on athletics and 10' extra movement level 5. 34d4 damage.

Emanations are also fun. You can play ping ping with repelling blast or any other push effect. New Yolande spell will also push them out 10' setting up the next character to push them back in.

 

[clearstream]

RAW you just impose the condition. You don't enter their space they don't enter yours. Page 367

There's no RAW definition of "drag" that I can find. The question is not of whether they enter your space, it's of what space you can "drag" another creature into (what counts as "dragging").

Grappler feat you can move around at your full speed.

Cheese grater sushi. The spike growth is the cheese grater. Gets hilarious with haste. 24d4 damage 30d4 with longstrider.

Goliath can also get advantage on athletics and 10' extra movement level 5.

Emanations are also fun. You can play ping ping with repelling blast or any other push effect.

Given a feat pick, a 2nd level spell slot, a 3rd level spell slot, two characters concentrating, a species choice, and the actions of multiple characters: that's a 5th-level party of four committed to harming one foe.

Questions of balance come down to what is overshadowed? Does spike growth + haste + grappler + goliath become so powerful that other choices amount to trap picks? And if so, is interpreting "drag" as "drag along beside you" better justified that interpreting it in an ameliorating way?