D&D (2024) New stealth rules.

[Chaosmancer]

OK so I think I get most of it. The issues they seem to be trying to fix are:

• people having line of sight automatically breaking stealth/invisible/hidden condition
• making noise while cloaked by invisibility spell does not mean enemies know which square you are in.

I'm fine using Common sense and just because you CAN hear or potentially see someone, doesn't mean you do. I'm accidentally stealthy and I'm always giving people a fright despite being in plain sight.

Mechanically though I'm still not sure I get it.

Rogue spies a ruffian in plain sight but ducks behind corner of the wall. Rolls 18 to hide and now has the invisible condition. The ruffian didn't see them.

Dm Decides ruffian is bored.

So, mechanically, is the ruffian not actively searching? Ruffian doesn't know rogue is there so has no reason to search actively for the rogue, so is he using his action for passive perception? If it's free, is he effectively holding his action until something happens? So a distraction causes him to use his reaction and held action, freeing up the rogue to sneak past? Or was he making an active check with disadvantage for being bored?

Does sneaking past count as initiating the encounter so the rogue goes first? If the ruffians passive perception is high enough to detect the Rogue's attempt to pass then what? Roll for initiative? At what point? When the Rogue's action is over, so stealth grants invisibility to the end of the Rogue's turn?

I think I'd prefer it if passive perception was not usable to detect someone using stealth but if they get one free round maybe it will work. I would just blag it but it would be nice to have some step by step examples.

If the DM decides the Ruffian is not taking the search action, then it would be passive instead of rolling a d20. This is also why the DC 15 is there, to give a baseline for when you don't want the target to roll.

I don't know why the ruffian's reaction or action matter here, what matters is what the rogue is doing next. If the rogue just wants to slip past the ruffian, then unless the ruffian is standing in the doorway the rogue wants through the Rogue can dart from cover to cover and get past the Ruffian into the next area.

If the Ruffian has a high enough passive to spot the rogue, well, Surprise and/or initiative might be appropriate, but it depends. IF the rogue decides to tell the Ruffian he has a message for the boss, and deceptions his way past, there would be no need for initiative. If he wants to just stab the guy, initiative. You haven't entered into turns yet, so no one has taken any turns or actions in the turn order yet. Initiative would determine what was happening next, but I would not give the rogue surprise or the invisible condition, because combat is starting due to them being spotted.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But you said your more salient point was that walking through the hall without cover shouldn’t break stealth. My counter argument is that it doesn’t break stealth, because you don’t actually lack cover.

And I am currently in debates with people who insist stepping behind a bush makes you transparent. I don't disagree that I would consider that cover, but since I could see people saying it wasn't cover, I wanted to be explicit.

 

[Xeviat]

Has a single person in this 123-page thread actually written up what their preferred Stealth rules are, or is this thread only to repeat again and again that the current rules are mid?

I'm pretty sure I did rather early on, but if I didn't, here's another attempt:

Stealth

You can use the Stealth skill to sneak and avoid notice. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you try to move or perform an action stealthily. Your Dexterity (Stealth) check is compared against the Passive Perception scores of anyone who could notice you. If your check meets or beats their score, you perform the action unnoticed; if the action is overt or noisy (like taking the Attack action or casting a spell with a Verbal component), you do not remain hidden afterwards; your DM may call for a Dexterity (Stealth) check with disadvantage if circumstances allow it (such as casting a spell with verbal components quietly in loud surroundings). While you are hidden from a creature, that creature does not know what space you are in (though it may know which direction you went if you hid behind something) and you gain advantage to attack creatures you are hidden from.

Your Stealth check automatically fails if you are being directly observed. You need some kind of cover or obscurement to perform an action Stealthily; approaching quietly from behind, hiding in shadows, blending into a noisy crowd, etc. Creatures with special senses, like echo location and scent, may require alternate forms of cover or obscurement to hide from.

It's actually complicated to write with 5E's insistence on not having a Move Action.

 

[Charlaquin]

And I am currently in debates with people who insist stepping behind a bush makes you transparent. I don't disagree that I would consider that cover, but since I could see people saying it wasn't cover, I wanted to be explicit.

I don’t understand what you’re being explicit about. You said you think walking down an empty hall without cover shouldn’t break stealth, but a person in an empty hall wouldn’t lack cover. So even if the stealth rules said that you stop being hidden the instant you aren’t behind cover… walking down an empty hall wouldn’t cause you to stop being hidden. Because if the hall is empty, you have total cover from everything.

 

[mamba]

I disagree, because then you can't hide then sneak attack.

wasn’t my choice, but it was being discussed

 

[Xeviat]

I don’t understand what you’re being explicit about. You said you think walking down an empty hall without cover shouldn’t break stealth, but a person in an empty hall wouldn’t lack cover. So even if the stealth rules said that you stop being hidden the instant you aren’t behind cover… walking down an empty hall wouldn’t cause you to stop being hidden. Because if the hall is empty, you have total cover from everything.

And there's a difference between walking down an empty hall and sneaking down an empty hall. If you just walk down the hall, someone behind a door might hear you. If you sneak down the hall, it's harder for them to hear you. Passive Perception, with disadvantage if they're occupied, advantage if they're being vigilant, with further adjustments for the kind of door and the distance.

 

[Xetheral]

And there's a difference between walking down an empty hall and sneaking down an empty hall. If you just walk down the hall, someone behind a door might hear you. If you sneak down the hall, it's harder for them to hear you. Passive Perception, with disadvantage if they're occupied, advantage if they're being vigilant, with further adjustments for the kind of door and the distance.

In the 2014 rules that's true, but it's unclear in the 2024 rules whether taking the Hide action provides any benefit to moving quietly. Some posters have been inferring such a benefit exists from the requirement to stay quiet in order to avoid losing the Invisible condition (and there's additional support for that inference in the blurb in the skills section) but it's not explicit. And it would be more than a little circular if the requirement to stay quiet in order to maintain the benefits of the Hide action was intended to be met by successfully taking the Hide action.

 

[Shardstone]

I'm pretty sure I did rather early on, but if I didn't, here's another attempt:

Stealth

You can use the Stealth skill to sneak and avoid notice. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you try to move or perform an action stealthily. Your Dexterity (Stealth) check is compared against the Passive Perception scores of anyone who could notice you. If your check meets or beats their score, you perform the action unnoticed; if the action is overt or noisy (like taking the Attack action or casting a spell with a Verbal component), you do not remain hidden afterwards; your DM may call for a Dexterity (Stealth) check with disadvantage if circumstances allow it (such as casting a spell with verbal components quietly in loud surroundings). While you are hidden from a creature, that creature does not know what space you are in (though it may know which direction you went if you hid behind something) and you gain advantage to attack creatures you are hidden from.

Your Stealth check automatically fails if you are being directly observed. You need some kind of cover or obscurement to perform an action Stealthily; approaching quietly from behind, hiding in shadows, blending into a noisy crowd, etc. Creatures with special senses, like echo location and scent, may require alternate forms of cover or obscurement to hide from.

It's actually complicated to write with 5E's insistence on not having a Move Action.

Fantastic, this is great stuff.

 

[Maxperson]

Has a single person in this 123-page thread actually written up what their preferred Stealth rules are, or is this thread only to repeat again and again that the current rules are mid?

Lots of people have said how they will run stealth. I don't think anyone has posted a re-write of the stealth rule for the book, though.

 

[Maxperson]

So....

Does everyone agree that it should break at the end of your turn without cover? (In addition to attacking and making noise?)

You also lose the condition if you end your turn with no cover and no obscurement

Sounds good to me.