(More) Questions about the Spellthief

[Road_Runner]

So I'm making a spellthief for my friend's campaign and I have a couple questions.

(btw this is a little bit of a repost from this thread but this question wasn't really related to my original question and the thread kind of died anyway)


So everywhere I look I see tons of multiclass spellthief builds. Why? Because there is this awesome feat called Master Spellthief. If you aren't familiar with this feat, it does two things for you (it's in Complete Scoundrel btw):

1) "Your spellthief levels stack with levels of arcane spellcaster classes for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th level spellthief."

2) "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

So I'm focusing on the 1st part, specifically the part in red. The wording seems pretty clear that it only improves the highest level spell you can steal, not the amount of spell levels you can steal. I think somebody else confirmed this somewhere, I don't know where the thread went though (and it was just one person).

My confusion comes from the fact that I keep seeing posts like this:

... the following might be better suited for it:

spellthief 1/wizard 5/spellwarp sniper 5

that is, only if you're considering master spellthief, which i'm fairly certain you are. that'd give you steal spell CL 6 and a wizard CL of 11...

and this

So... am I completely misinterpreting the feat or are these people making an incorrect assumption that the max amount of spells you can hold still progresses with the Master Spellthief feat?


I have one more question, which is concerning a variant rule about spellthieves. From Dragon Magazine 353, there is a variant (Hamper Magic) that lets you switch out your spell energy resistance and steal spell-like ability to get this:

"To hamper magic, you must make a successful sneak attack and give up 1d6 or more points of sneak attack damage. Against a target with spells or spell-like abilities, hamper magic reduces the target's caster level by 1 per 3 spellthief levels you possess. A spellcaster whose caster level is reduced to 0 cannot cast cannot cast any spells." Effect lasts 1 round/level.

My question is does this ability stack if you use it multiple times? I would be inclined to say yes because there is a very similar variant called cursed blow which specifically states that it doesn't stack while this one is very similar but doesn't mention anything about not stacking.


EDIT: Wow I just noticed what a massive wall of text this is :\

DOUBLE EDIT: I forgot to post one more question about hamper magic....

Do you think that when you reduce a caster's caster level with hamper magic and then you steal a spell you cast the spell with a reduced caster level, or if you reduced their caster level to 0 you can't cast the stolen spell?
From the rules I would be inclined to say yes, but that seems pretty silly for a spellthief.

 

[Persiflage]

[snippage]

1) "Your spellthief levels stack with levels of arcane spellcaster classes for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th level spellthief."

[snippage]

The wording seems pretty clear that it only improves the highest level spell you can steal, not the amount of spell levels you can steal. I think somebody else confirmed this somewhere, I don't know where the thread went though (and it was just one person).

According to the wording of the feat as written and the text of the relevant class ability, this is correct.

At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level (treat 0-level spells as 1/2 level for this purpose).

This does make the Steal Spell ability much less useful at higher levels. You can deprive someone of a spell by "stealing" it, but you can't hold enough spell levels to hang onto it yourself. That's... kind of sucky. Your DM might well be inclined to handwave the problem away, but as written, Master Spellthief isn't quite as good as it's sometimes made out to be.

Well, not without multiple-caster-level-stacking cheese anyway

My confusion comes from the fact that I keep seeing posts like this:

and this

So... am I completely misinterpreting the feat or are these people making an incorrect assumption that the max amount of spells you can hold still progresses with the Master Spellthief feat?

It's not said outright in the thread you linked to, but I do believe that the OP, at least, is making the unwarranted assumption that he'll be able to actually do something with the high-level stolen spells.

I have one more question, which is concerning a variant rule about spellthieves. From Dragon Magazine 353, there is a variant (Hamper Magic) that lets you switch out your spell energy resistance and steal spell-like ability to get this:

"To hamper magic, you must make a successful sneak attack and give up 1d6 or more points of sneak attack damage. Against a target with spells or spell-like abilities, hamper magic reduces the target's caster level by 1 per 3 spellthief levels you possess. A spellcaster whose caster level is reduced to 0 cannot cast cannot cast any spells." Effect lasts 1 round/level.

Note my emphasis above. Master Spellthief won't help you with this either, so unless you have significant actual levels in the class it probably isn't worth counting on the ability for much.

My question is does this ability stack if you use it multiple times? I would be inclined to say yes because there is a very similar variant called cursed blow which specifically states that it doesn't stack while this one is very similar but doesn't mention anything about not stacking.

I'd be inclined to say yes, too. As written, it's not a penalty as such; it's more like "caster level damage", or the feats that allow you to blow sneak attack in exchange for wounding blows or Con damage. You'll still need plenty of levels in Spellthief to make this matter much... Note that the ability, as written, doesn't reduce the highest-level spell or SLA the target can cast until you get their CL down to 0. As such, it's a bit all-or-nothing.

Really, if you want to make proper use of Spellthief class abilities there's really nothing for it but to take lots of levels in Spellthief (or Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster), and if you're doing that then it's a bit questionable as to whether Master Spellthief is worth your time.

EDIT: Wow I just noticed what a massive wall of text this is :

Don't worry about it... We're roleplayers, we've got a better attention span than most boards

 

[Road_Runner]

According to the wording of the feat as written and the text of the relevant class ability, this is correct.

This does make the Steal Spell ability much less useful at higher levels. You can deprive someone of a spell by "stealing" it, but you can't hold enough spell levels to hang onto it yourself. That's... kind of sucky. Your DM might well be inclined to handwave the problem away, but as written, Master Spellthief isn't quite as good as it's sometimes made out to be.


It's not said outright in the thread you linked to, but I do believe that the OP, at least, is making the unwarranted assumption that he'll be able to actually do something with the high-level stolen spells.

Ok thanks for confirming that; now I don't feel like I'm missing out by going pure spellthief.

I'd be inclined to say yes, too. As written, it's not a penalty as such; it's more like "caster level damage", or the feats that allow you to blow sneak attack in exchange for wounding blows or Con damage. You'll still need plenty of levels in Spellthief to make this matter much... Note that the ability, as written, doesn't reduce the highest-level spell or SLA the target can cast until you get their CL down to 0. As such, it's a bit all-or-nothing.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it too (it's an all-or-nothing type ability). But if I'm going pure spell-thief and I get enough sneak attacks this ability would be pretty nice (although losing steal SLA and energy resistance sucks).

I forgot to ask one more question about hamper magic, which is do you think that when you reduce a caster's caster level with hamper magic and then you steal a spell you cast the spell with a reduced caster level, or if you reduced their caster level to 0 you can't cast the stolen spell?
From the rules I would be inclined to say yes, but that seems pretty silly for a spellthief.

 

[Persiflage]

I forgot to ask one more question about hamper magic, which is do you think that when you reduce a caster's caster level with hamper magic and then you steal a spell you cast the spell with a reduced caster level, or if you reduced their caster level to 0 you can't cast the stolen spell?
From the rules I would be inclined to say yes, but that seems pretty silly for a spellthief.

Honestly? As written? Yeah. And it is silly.

On the other hand, ask your DM. It's not like Spellthief played straight has game-breaking potential. The important thing is not to ask your DM the following question:

"If I reduce someone's caster level then steal a spell, do I cast it at the reduced level?"

It's an entirely appropriate question, but runs a severe risk of getting the answer "Yes".

This is the question you want to ask:

"If a party member boosts their caster level through items or Divine Spell Power or something and they let me steal the spell from them, do I get to cast it at the higher CL?"

When he says "Absolutely not," let your face fall for a minute and then say "OK, no problem; looking on the bright side I guess that means that if I drop someone's CL then steal a spell, I still cast at the original level," as though this were a secondary point.

A few ranks in DM Management are worth more than twenty pages of Sage and CustServ rulings [1] in your favour






[1] Which is of course to say: "worth more than nothing whatsoever" as far as most DM's are concerned, but the point is valid

 

[krupintupple]

i should qualify the bit where you quoted me earlier that i honestly hadn't given much thought to many of the mechanics of the class, per se. i basically opened up complete scoundrel, read the feat and kinda on-the-fly interpreted it RAW.

 

[Road_Runner]

"If a party member boosts their caster level through items or Divine Spell Power or something and they let me steal the spell from them, do I get to cast it at the higher CL?"

When he says "Absolutely not," let your face fall for a minute and then say "OK, no problem; looking on the bright side I guess that means that if I drop someone's CL then steal a spell, I still cast at the original level," as though this were a secondary point.

Haha, I'll be sure to try this out. This DM isn't that knowledgeable but totally suspicious of any kind of cheese and would totally jump a ban on that.

i should qualify the bit where you quoted me earlier that i honestly hadn't given much thought to many of the mechanics of the class, per se. i basically opened up complete scoundrel, read the feat and kinda on-the-fly interpreted it RAW.

Don't worry about it; a lot of people misinterpreted it this way, there were a lot of other posts very similar to yours. I think the wording makes it very easy to misinterpret.

 

[Slife]

Honestly, I'd keep steal spell-like ability if at all possible. The best part of it is that unlike steal spell you don't reduce your target's uses per day - worst case, they just have the spell-like ability unusable for a minute.

If you have somebody in your party with a dragonmark, or another ability to cast spell likes with a per-day limit (such as a factotum), you now effectively have an unlimited number of uses of that ability.

Which is pretty cool.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The 1/3 progression on steal SLA limits it a lot, though. I really don't understand why they didn't make it half level, instead of capping at 6th level SLAs. Considering the number of spells high level casters get, I don't even think the whole "unlimited use" aspect much matters. Maybe it's to prevent summoned/called monster abuse...