'Matter Agitation' power clarification

[frankthedm]

One wall per pp. (Rather, one 2 ft. x 2 ft. hole per pp.)

And that is the crux of the issue! A hole has 3 dimensions, not 2!

 

[Nifft]

And that is the crux of the issue! A hole has 3 dimensions, not 2!

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to add perspective. It's not "every wall in the dungeon for 1 pp". It's (at most) one 2 ft. x 2 ft. (by infinite length) hole per 1 pp.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nonlethal Force]

The water's surface comes to a full boil by the second round. easy enough to picture for me.

Yes, but you can't boil in 2D. In fact, I can imagine many holes more thin than the volume of water needed to actually boil (and not merely evaporate away). At the very least, bubbles are spherical, implying 3D. At which point, how much of the surface bubbles? At what random interval are you going to allow 2D to become 3D just to allow for the stated example?

Now, I'm slightly overstating the question to suggest that there is absolutely nothing wrong with accepting that in certain circumstances (like boiling water) that it might not be able to be a 2D spell. Rather than waste time at the table arguing about the rules ... as a DM I'd see that the spirit of the rules would seem to suggest that it would work on some volume of water.

As a player, I'd also completely accept what I think is a fair conclusion that the power works on the "arbitrarily thin" amount of water and that water drains away. The power can still work on the water that has melted away, but the power cannot be shifted to a new chunk of ice. As a player, I would accept that as a fair interpretation of the rules for a first level power.

But then again, if I wanted to melt ice legitimately I'd do as Nifft already suggested. Heat something metal and melt the ice away. There's the money answer.

 

[Cameron]

Yes, but you can't boil in 2D. In fact, I can imagine many holes more thin than the volume of water needed to actually boil (and not merely evaporate away). At the very least, bubbles are spherical, implying 3D. At which point, how much of the surface bubbles? At what random interval are you going to allow 2D to become 3D just to allow for the stated example?

Now, I'm slightly overstating the question to suggest that there is absolutely nothing wrong with accepting that in certain circumstances (like boiling water) that it might not be able to be a 2D spell. Rather than waste time at the table arguing about the rules ... as a DM I'd see that the spirit of the rules would seem to suggest that it would work on some volume of water.

As a player, I'd also completely accept what I think is a fair conclusion that the power works on the "arbitrarily thin" amount of water and that water drains away. The power can still work on the water that has melted away, but the power cannot be shifted to a new chunk of ice. As a player, I would accept that as a fair interpretation of the rules for a first level power.

But then again, if I wanted to melt ice legitimately I'd do as Nifft already suggested. Heat something metal and melt the ice away. There's the money answer.

Not really. THe heat can be applied to the surface of the ice, but then convection takes over, spreading it in 3 dimensions. It is not the spell that causes the 3 dimensional movement, but the heat that is the result of the spell. Thus, you have, in effect, a heater.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Well, actually that's a bit more in favor of the OP's position, not the other. If you have in effect a heater, then you can continue to apply it through the ice as the water melts away! Besides, I've never said that the heat wasn't 2D, I've been saying that the effect is 3D. Even if you have a heat source that is external, if water is boiling then it is a 3D amount of water. That's my point. If water is boiling, it has to be some thickness of water that is boiling. Rather than argue about what that arbitrary thickness is, just accept that if it can boil water it can work on the ice to some level. The DM does his job and tells what thickness it can effect (DM's call, IMO) and determines if they are going to let the heat persist and be used to tunel through the ice or say that the effect stays with the water and a new use of the power is needed to melt more.

Either of those are fine by me. But then again, if I were in the game, I'd have heated a round cylindrical object and used that as a cutting tool to melt lines in the ice and effectively cut away chunks of it. And, I'm also much more interested in gaming for fun, not making sure that the game is adhering to real life physics, which really don't necessarily apply equally to a D&D context.

 

[Cameron]

Well, actually that's a bit more in favor of the OP's position, not the other. If you have in effect a heater, then you can continue to apply it through the ice as the water melts away! Besides, I've never said that the heat wasn't 2D, I've been saying that the effect is 3D. Even if you have a heat source that is external, if water is boiling then it is a 3D amount of water. That's my point. If water is boiling, it has to be some thickness of water that is boiling. Rather than argue about what that arbitrary thickness is, just accept that if it can boil water it can work on the ice to some level. The DM does his job and tells what thickness it can effect (DM's call, IMO) and determines if they are going to let the heat persist and be used to tunel through the ice or say that the effect stays with the water and a new use of the power is needed to melt more.

Either of those are fine by me. But then again, if I were in the game, I'd have heated a round cylindrical object and used that as a cutting tool to melt lines in the ice and effectively cut away chunks of it. And, I'm also much more interested in gaming for fun, not making sure that the game is adhering to real life physics, which really don't necessarily apply equally to a D&D context.

Convection means it can only go up, which makes it hard to bore a hole through a wall, and yet solve much of the issues that the OP seems to be having with his DM.

 

[SewerSquirrel]

Okay, I prepared by case to the DM and we agreed on my explanation only because he assumed I was wanting to melt a hole in ice FLOOR, which would turn the ice to water and then boil it (making 3 rounds to boil due to the transition to steam from ice). Basically he gave me a 2' x 2' x 1' cube per round for melting the ice (and making the math easier).

 

[Felnar]

Okay, I prepared by case to the DM and we agreed on my explanation only because he assumed I was wanting to melt a hole in ice FLOOR, which would turn the ice to water and then boil it (making 3 rounds to boil due to the transition to steam from ice). Basically he gave me a 2' x 2' x 1' cube per round for melting the ice (and making the math easier).

go for sublimation

 

[Cameron]

go for sublimation

Hard to do with water, unfortunately. Naphthelene, on the other hand...