D&D 5E Light VS Dancing Lights

[DND_Reborn]

I did not read the description of that spell closely enough .... thank you. I have a rogue 4/warlok 2 about to level up and get 2nd level spells and this was not on my list until I read your reply.

You're welcome! Even without the "rules lawyering RAW breakage" I found, it is still awesome, especially combined with Elven Accuracy.

 

[Todd Roybark]

The point is you can see them when they cannot see you at farther range, and at closer range they will have disadvantage to see you while you will have normal vision to see them.

Disclaimer...I could not get through the video. I like essays but 10 minute homemade videos...my attention wanders.

One only receives the benefit of Darkvision within one's Darkvision range, typically 60'.
Outside this range, one just has regular vision.

Since Dancing Light creates Dim Light....this tactic winds up giving you Disadvantage on Perception checks.

Also, the video presumes a flat featureless plain...which might be realistic if you are adventuring in the asphalt parking lot of the Los Angeles Zoo, but not so much if you are in the brush of Griffith Park.

Dancing Lights is a great spelunking spell though....not too bright, and leaves your hands free to climb the rope.

 

[Todd Roybark]

But nothing says an area that is "bright light" overpowers/cancels out/etc. an area of dim light. When I have the lights on, and light a candle, the light from the candle is still there.

Sure..but the Dim Light of the candle *is*overpowered by the BRIGHT light around it.
Nothing in the DMG explicitly states that poisons have odors, and flavor....the game assumes some degree of practical sense. Are all poisons Iocane Powder from Princess Bride?

So a Vampire is immune to the bright light of the sun by casting Dancing Lights?

Let us ask the judges on that one:

Survey Says: Does the Dim Light of Dancing Lights supersede the Bright Light of the Sun?



Oops, sorry the judges say no. Have some Rice-A-Roni as a parting gift.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So a Vampire is immune to the bright light of the sun by casting Dancing Lights?

Nope. It is in BOTH. There is no superseding, etc.

And your judges can go themselves.They don't play at my table.

 

[Oofta]

Sure..but the Dim Light of the candle *is*overpowered by the BRIGHT light around it.
Nothing in the DMG explicitly states that poisons have odors, and flavor....the game assumes some degree of practical sense. Are all poisons Iocane Powder from Princess Bride?

So a Vampire is immune to the bright light of the sun by casting Dancing Lights?

Let us ask the judges on that one:

Survey Says: Does the Dim Light of Dancing Lights supersede the Bright Light of the Sun?



Oops, sorry the judges say no. Have some Rice-A-Roni as a parting gift.

Dim light isn't even overpowered by bright light, it's that any source of light just adds to the light that's already there. If there is no light, we get dim. If there's sunlight we get ever-so-slightly brighter sunlight. It's like turning on a garden hose and adding water to a river. It adds such a tiny amount of water to the river that no one notices.

It's kind of like saying you can wash your car with a garden hose. Therefore if you're spraying water from a garden hose into the river you can wash your car by driving the car into the river. Good luck with that.

I doubt many DMs would allow it but not my table, not my ruling. I guarantee I make rulings all the time other DMs would disagree with as well.

 

[Asgorath]

Dim light isn't even overpowered by bright light, it's that any source of light just adds to the light that's already there. If there is no light, we get dim. If there's sunlight we get ever-so-slightly brighter sunlight. It's like turning on a garden hose and adding water to a river. It adds such a tiny amount of water to the river that no one notices.

Right, the PHB says:

The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness.

Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius.

Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light.

Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness.

These categories are mutually exclusive, as indicated by the first sentence there. So, if the area is already in bright light and you cast Dancing Lights, the area is still brightly lit (especially because Dancing Lights doesn't explicitly say that it turns bright light into dim light).

Whichever form you choose, each light sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius.

Shedding dim light doesn't change bright light into dim light, if you light a candle while standing outside in the sunlight it's not like you're suddently bathed in 10 feet of shadows.

However, consider a spell like Shadow of Moil:

Flame-like shadows wreathe your body until the spell ends, causing you to become heavily obscured to others. The shadows turn dim light within 10 feet of you into darkness, and bright light in the same area to dim light.

Emphasis mine. The spell explicitly says that it alters a region of bright light, which seems reasonable for a 4th-level spell as opposed to a cantrip.

 

[DND_Reborn]

These categories are mutually exclusive, as indicated by the first sentence there.

Not so. If it said "The presence or absence of light in an environment creates one of three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness." I would agree with your, but it doesn't. Just because there are categories of something, does not imply those categories must be mutually exclusive.

So, if the area is already in bright light and you cast Dancing Lights, the area is still brightly lit (especially because Dancing Lights doesn't explicitly say that it turns bright light into dim light).

Correct, but I don't think anyone is suggesting it "turns bright light into dim light". The bright light is there, but so is the source of the dim light, and it is just adding more "light" to the scene. But the fact remains the source of dim light is shedding "dim light" into that area and the two overlap.

consider a spell like Shadow of Moil:

Which actually changes the lighting condition. I'm not arguing the cantrip changes the lighting condition. I'm arguing that Shadow Blade requires the target to be in dim light or darkness to gain advantage. Shadow Blade does not exclude "bright light" in that statement. So the target can be in both light conditions (bright and dim) at the same time. Again, the section on light in the environment section does not imply mutually exclusivity.

It is horrible rules-lawyering? You bet! But it isn't easy to have a source of dim light while concentrating on Shadow Blade. The only method I came up with was a hooded lantern, turned down all the way, shedding dim light in a 5-ft. radius. But, in order for my PC to do that, she suffers (currently) a -4 penalty to her AC (shield +2) when she does. A -4 AC penalty is pretty big just to grant myself advantage when there are other ways she can get it. This "trick" is basically her last go-to option when she needs to get in her sneak attack and has no other way.

FWIW, I haven't even needed to use this in months of game play now.

Finally, as @Oofta says, some DM's might allow it, others won't. I know there are tons of mechanics issues (Shield Master anyone?) that deviate from RAW, RAI, and house-ruling.

 

[Asgorath]

I guess I just don't understand how you can read this:

Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light.

and think that Dancing Lights in an already-brightly lit area does what you say it does. If you're in the middle of a brightly-lit room, there aren't enough shadows for Shadow Blade to be extra good.

You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. ... In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.

The sword is made from the shadows, and so if you're in the shadows (or darkness) you get advantage. There are no shadows (or not enough shadows) in an area of bright light, and so you'd need to add shadows via a spell like Shadow of Moil.

To each their own, I guess. My players never seem to struggle to find ways to grant advantage on their attacks, and if I had a player that wanted to use this spell in cool ways, I'd just have more areas of dim light in the game? Does every room or environment really need to be brightly lit? As a DM, I'd want my players to have fun with their abilities. Or, you know, perhaps the party is already doing plenty of damage and so you don't need to have advantage on literally every single attack you do?

 

[DND_Reborn]

To each their own, I guess.

Sure, honestly when I first came up with the idea it was total rules-lawyering "what if?" kind of thing.

Then it became a "how can I create just dim light (without also creating bright light) within reach of my attack without using a concentration spell?"

Finally, the solution of a hooded lantern turned all the way down (only dim light 5-ft radius) came to me!

Since the game set precedence with things like the Devil's Sight invocation (helps seeing in darkness, but doesn't help at all in dim light), "strange" rulings such as this are plausible if a DM wants to allow it. The magic of Shadow Blade within a radius of "dim light" is also strange but works (if you want it to LOL!).

 

[Asgorath]

Sure, honestly when I first came up with the idea it was total rules-lawyering "what if?" kind of thing.

Then it became a "how can I create just dim light (without also creating bright light) within reach of my attack without using a concentration spell?"

Finally, the solution of a hooded lantern turned all the way down (only dim light 5-ft radius) came to me!

Since the game set precedence with things like the Devil's Sight invocation (helps seeing in darkness, but doesn't help at all in dim light), "strange" rulings such as this are plausible if a DM wants to allow it. The magic of Shadow Blade within a radius of "dim light" is also strange but works (if you want it to LOL!).

Well, there's a pretty reasonable interpretation of Devil's Sight only working in darkness: devils can see really well in total darkness, and prefer to have no light at all. This was naturally confirmed by Jeremy Crawford:


You also don't need to be standing in the darkness for the invocation to work:


So if someone is carrying a torch or using Dancing Lights, Devil's Sight would still make the areas of darkness appear as if they are brightly lit. That all seems consistent to me, since the invocation is giving you the ability to see like a devil after all. From a design perspective, I actually like the fact that Devil's Sight isn't just a magic "you can see 120 ft no matter what the lighting conditions are" ability.