Roll For Combat Store Page.
Foundry VTT Store Page (5e).
Foundry VTT Store Page (Pf2e).
Roll for Combat is a third party publisher that makes products for 5th Edition D&D and Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Mark Seifter, one of the writers, was one of the co-designers for the latter game, meaning that many among the fandom regard the publisher as being "2nd party." Roll for Combat's most popular line is Battlezoo, focusing on all things monstrous. Battlezoo Bestiaries provide new monsters and adversaries, World of Battlezoo details the publication's homebrew campaign setting, and Battlezoo Ancestries has PC-friendly conversions of iconic fantasy creatures. It is this last line that will be the focus of this thread, and we'll start with Classic Creatures. This tome contains write-ups of 12 new ancestries, plus 4 versatile species/heritages representing a monstrous ancestor in another race's family tree. The product is available for both 5e and Pf2e, and I'll be reviewing both. I'll note that I'm much more experienced with the former game, but after being a player in a Pathfinder campaign for a month and a half and having read the Player, GM, and Monster Remastered Core books, I have a better grasp on the system's underlying foundations.
Classic Creatures, as well as the other Battlezoo Ancestries products, are partially written from the in-character perspective of Aitheria Nyx. They're a scholar of various species and cultures who seeks to provide a more understanding outlook on beings often judged as dangerous by wider humanoid society. Each major section in this book consists of a playable monster option, either a broad category of related beings like demons and slimes, or more "specific" creatures like minotaurs and oni. The book strikes a balance between fluff and crunch, providing new mechanics as well as discussion on societal organization, cultural practices, relations with others, and common types of adventurers for said monsters.
When it comes to mechanics, the most weighty entries are new feats specific to the monstrous ancestries, and it's here that we see the differences in design philosophy between the two systems. For those unfamiliar with Pathfinder 2nd Edition, feats are a core part of character progression and are split into several types: general feats, skill feats, class feats, and ancestry feats. Each feat type grants new and/or improved uses of special abilities, and they all have different progressions as one levels up. For example, class feats are gained at every 2nd level, while ancestry feats are gained at 1st, 5th, and every 4 levels thereafter. Due to this, a PC doesn't really have to worry about being starved of options or having to weigh between being a "better elf" or a "better wizard" or the like.
But in 5e, a feat is a feat, and thus competes with every other feat. Battlezoo Ancestries takes a similar approach to Pathfinder in level-gating certain monstrous feats, with a progression of 1st, 4th, and every 4 level thereafter which more or less map up to the 1/5/9/etc model. But even so, 5e feats take up the same resources for character limitations. Due to this, such feats can be harder picks to justify for builds unless they are very, very good. We can see how one line of feats suffered in the transition: Lore feats, which are from official Pathfinder material and take the name of the ancestry in question. In Pathfinder, [Ancestry] Lore feats grant proficiency in 2 skills and a Lore skill pertaining to their people. In 5th Edition, that same feat grants proficiency in 2 skills, and the Lore skill equivalent applies to rolls on any checks made to know things about their own ancestry's culture and society. With this feat, the monstrous PC always treat such checks as a 10 if the roll is lower than a 10. Not only is this competing with the Skilled feat that can grant 3 skills, the "10 or lower" can be very situational if the PC's ancestry isn't a major player in the campaign.
Other design differences which are relevant to discuss for this review:
- Darkvision is much rarer in pf2e, which has low-light vision and is more generous with other sensory types such as imprecise scent. Ancestries which have low-light vision in pf2e have darkvision in 5e.
- Default movement speed is slightly slower in pf2e, with 25 foot speed being the default vs 5e's 30. The "slow" movement speed is 20 feet rather than 25.
- While permanent flight is rare in 5e, there are 3 ancestries which have it. In pf2e, ancestries which are known for having wings or flight usually get short-term flight as an ancestry feat at later levels rather than beginning with it, and permanent flight as an ancestry feat in the double digit levels. The ancestries in this book tend to get short-term flight at 8th or 9th level, and permanent flight at 13th level in Pathfinder or 16th level in D&D.
- Special abilities which have a refresh rate in 5e are typically divided between short rests (1 hour) and long rests (8 hours, can only have one such rest per day). Pf2e is more granular, with cooldown rates listing explicit time frames such as once per minute, once per 10 minutes, or even once every few days for more extreme cases. Abilities which would refresh on a short rest in the 5e version of this book typically refresh once per 10 minutes or once per hour in pf2e, while long rest abilities usually refresh once per day.
- Damage resistance in 5e is a flat halving of all damage of a particular type, while in pf2e damage resistances have a specific numerical value indicating the amount of damage which is reduced. Same principle applies to vulnerabilities. In pf2e, special abilities which grant resistance tend to be half your level for ones gained for free at 1st level, while 13th and higher level feats often grant 5 or 10 resistance to particular damage types either permanently or for a limited duration. In 5e, it is common for 4th level feats involving natural attacks to treat them as magical for overcoming damage resistance and immunity. Resistance to physical damage types in Pathfinder comes in at 12th level and higher feats.
- In Pathfinder, ancestries, feats, items, spells, etc are grouped into Common, Uncommon, and Rare categories. Common represent options available by default, Uncommon represent options difficult to access or usually found in certain regions, while Rare represent options allowable only by explicit GM permission. All ancestries in this book are Rare. For 5e, allowance of non-core material relies entirely on DM Fiat and doesn't have granular scales of "rarity."
- The fluff text includes common philosophies and societal structures, usually 3-7, which in 5th Edition have mechanics as new backgrounds. Not all societies give a background, with the 3 deemed the most "adventurer-friendly" or willing to interact with outsiders gaining the benefits of new backgrounds.
- Ancestries in both systems range from Small to Large size, with Medium being the most common. There are some feats which allow a character to shrink down to Tiny or up to Huge, albeit in this book Huge size is only temporary rather than permanent and available at 16th/17th level.
- Several monsters, particularly of the extraplanar or fey variety, get 16th/17th level feats that grant them a casting of Plane Shift, but only between their home/associated plane and the Material Plane. They don't need the tuning fork attuned to the plane as a material component. This is rather weak for a feat given that it replicates a single spell and with a narrower use.
Thoughts: It's clear that the authors put a lot of thought into making sure the monsters' abilities were accurately emulated in the systems in which they're in. This is good, as a lot of "straight numbers" translations are a problem I've heard of in the "5e to Pathfinder" conversions of indie publishers. But despite surface-level similarities in genre and playstyle, 5th Edition and Pathfinder have very different design principles which can impact the attractiveness of choices, even if in both versions they more or less do the same thing. We'll be focusing on how well or poorly this book does this for the playable monster options going forward, as well as reviewing the contents themselves.
Demons are our first ancestry, an umbrella category for extraplanar beings of Chaos and Evil who are the literal exemplifications of particular types of sin. The book presumes that playable demons managed to gain a capacity for free will, whether on their own or via some outside source. Such demons are known as "renegades," and while this title includes those who rejected their nature in favor of higher moral callings, it just as easily includes demons who still succumb to the fundamental sins at war within their soul. And those who are better able to pursue evil, now that their all-consuming sins don't weigh down their capacity for rational decision-making.
Demons can come in all shapes, sizes, sins for every occasion, but the ones in this book cover eight common iconic demons such as marilith, succubi, and vrocks. What causes a demon to become a renegade is a personal event that can take all manner of paths, and due to this a renegade demon may gain a slightly altered form to reflect their new nature or still look mostly the same or even identical to their brethren. Befitting their chaotic and highly individual origins, renegade demons don't tend to organize into like-minded groups, but there are five broad philosophies known as "hosts" which reflect common paths renegades take. Free spirits represent the ultimate seizing of one's destiny, who view being tied to one's sins as another form of constricting law and defy what is expected of their kind. Redeemed are the stereotypical "risen demon" who came to regret their wickedness and strive to uphold the Good in the world. They usually extol the virtues of compassion, open-mindedness, and serving as a guiding light in knowing that even the lowest fiends can be redeemed. Regulators are those who view their former nature as an eternal struggle, and fight their urges by creating intricate codes of rules and self-denial in order to pursue their best selves. Renegade Sinners are our first "NPC host," representing demons who still choose to do evil but view their free will as an improvement to their formerly limited nature. The other NPC group are reversers, who believe that to reject their sinful nature involves acting in a way that is opposite of the sin, and thus can take all manner of forms.
Thoughts: I like the idea of making PC demons be "freed" ones. As Chaotic Evil is all too often portrayed as Stupid Evil even in canon sources, a demonic PC in particular will be a whole other level of problematic on top of the typical pitfalls of evil-aligned PCs. I like the idea of making the renegade nature be a personal philosophical-style journey, and the various examples of how demons and demonic subspecies approach this is helpful in providing players an idea of a compelling character beyond that of a remorseful fiend.
The base ancestry/race of the Demon is a "blank slate," in that it has a series of generic traits that don't particularly fit any one role or class. Their ability score increases can be either Strength or Charisma plus one other score of their choice, they have the fiend type/trait, an average movement speed, and in both rulesets they have darkvision. The 5e version grants them advantage on saves and resistance vs the poisoned condition and poison damage, while the Pathfinder version gets +1 hit point per level but they have a Weakness to damage sources of good and evil alignment (holy/unholy in Remastered) equal to half their level.
A demon's subrace/heritage is where they get abilities closer in line to particular archetypes and sins, and which also determines their size category. We also have detailed entries of common personality traits for renegades of each type. For example, brimoraks are arsonist demons who are consumed by a passion for fire, and renegades of their kind often channel this passion into healthier outlets. Or how dretches are lazy cowards, and renegade ones often become so after finding a cause or purpose that moves them strongly enough to overcome their sin of sloth. Hezrou specialize in corruption of mortal behavior and institutions, so many renegades seek to perform altruistic and charitable activities for societal improvement.
Babaus are sadistic killers obsessed with pain and torture and gain a reaction-based acidic slime attack. Brimoraks can see through smoke in both systems, but get fire resistance only in 5e for some reason. Dretches are the weak and lazy hordes of the demonic realm, and gain a Cower ability which makes them tougher to hit. Hezrou are our sole Large size demon, and their automatic features differ by system: in 5th Edition they can emanate a stench-based aura that can poison targets, while in Pathfinder (and as a feat in 5e) they are amphibious and get a swim speed. Mariliths are prideful warriors who are loath to yield to others, which grants them bonuses against forced movement in both systems, and in 5th Edition also gives them the Acrobatics skill. Omox are sludgelike demons who prefer corruption of a more physical kind than hezrous, manifesting in being amphibious and having resistance to acid damage. Succubi are the iconic lustful temptresses who gain free training/proficiency in Deception and Diplomacy/Persuasion skills. Finally, vrocks are vulture-like demons of wrath, and have resistance to lightning damage and take less falling damage.
Thoughts: The Brimorak's lack of fire resistance in Pathfinder feels a bit odd, while a vrock's resistances are going to be more situational in comparison to the other subspecies. A succubus' talents are very good for all manner of campaigns that feature social interactions, while hezrou starting at Large size can be good for grapple/shove builds in being able to target bigger enemies along with touching more squares in reach and auras. I feel that dretches aren't going to be a popular choice, due to their "weak" perception in lore and having a defensive/reactive feature rather than an active one.
We get a lot of new demon-only feats: 39 in D&D and 43 in Pathfinder, to be specific. Most feats can be taken by demons of any kind, but some are restricted to particular subraces/heritages due to having abilities in line with their innate nature and features.
The feats vary widely quite a bit in broad use and balance, which is exacerbated in 5th Edition for the reasons outlined earlier in this post. On the weaker side we have Demonic Strike, which grants a bonus natural unarmed attack depending on the demon's subspecies that has either a 1d4 or 1d6 base damage die. Same for Abyssal Servitor, where the demon has a buddy who also went renegade and is represented via the Find Familiar spell, but is of the fiend type and gains a bonus energy damage resistance. The vrock has an 8th/9th level feat specific to them, Dance of Ruin, where they can summon a strike of lightning down upon an area. The size and damage of the lightning can increase the more rounds they dance and the more vrocks who join in, albeit the damage is capped based on a maximum number of rounds or vrocks. While it's a nifty and iconic ability, it's the kind of thing that is going to be highly situational, given that pulling it off in battle involves giving up valuable actions over a few rounds. And to say nothing of how difficult or costly it is to find or summon other vrocks, unless multiple players pick the same subspecies.
One more example highlighting systemic differences is Vicious Criticals, an 8th/9th level feat that deals a persistent damage type to a target if the demon gets a critical hit on them. In 5th Edition, critical hits can only occur on a natural 20 on the die roll. In Pathfinder 2nd Edition, a critical hit on an attack roll occurs if the result exceeds the target's Armor Class by at least 10. It's thus easier to get critical hits in this system, particularly when you and your fellow party members impose AC-reducing debuffs on a target. And there's an interesting inversion of the availability of unlimited flight, where the Perpetual Wings feat for demons which grants this is available at 13th level in Pathfinder, but 16th level in D&D.
Thoughts: From what I've seen of Pathfinder 2e, the 1st level feats look to be okay options, but in 5th Edition D&D they are hardly worth picking over an Ability Score Increase, Magic Initiate (which can grant Find Familiar plus 2 cantrips), or Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Mastery (which have a much bigger damage boost than what amount to daggers and shortswords).
Some feats which are notable for packing a bit of a punch include Stubborn Renegade (bonuses or advantage on saves vs emotion-manipulating effects) Brimorak Breath (4/5th level, brimorak only, breath weapon that also makes ground in AoE slippery), Fume (8/9th level, brimorak only, breathes a small AoE cloud of smoke that conceals those within and sickens or poisons those who fail a Fortitude/Constitution save, depending on system), Indomitable Renegade (4/5th level, while under an emotion or mind control-style effect, can make an additional save vs an effect that would make them act against their will to be paralyzed instead), Succubus' Embrace (4/5th level, succubus only, can substitute Diplomacy/Persuasion instead of Athletics for grapple checks), and Stunning Screech (12/13th level, vrock only, can emit an AoE scream that can stun non-demons who fail a Constitution/Fortitude save).
Thoughts: Succubus' Embrace is particularly good for Grappler Bard builds when combined with Expertise and the College of Eloquence. Fume is good in that there's not many foes that can see through smoke in either system to my knowledge. And since the brimorak can see through it by default, this can be very useful for tactics like foiling enemy line of sight.
Some of the feats differ quite a bit in both level prerequisite and function based on system. For example, Abyssal Escape lets the demon cast Dimension Door once per day/long rest, and in 5e it's an 8th level feat while in Pathfinder it's 13th level. Renegade Heroics does the same but for a self-only version of the Heroism spell, which in 5e is a 1st-level feat that can refresh once per short or long rest or with spell slots, while in Pf2e is a 9th level feat that can only be used once per day. As to why this is, the Pathfinder version upcasts Dimension Door as a 5th level spell, granting the demon the ability to teleport up to 1 mile away. As for Heroism, it's a 3rd level spell in Pathfinder and thus would be a tad overpowered to be able to cast once every 10 minutes or so.
Additionally, the 12/13th level Unseen Sight feat is very different depending on the system: in 5e it grants a once per long rest or spell slot casting of True Seeing, while in Pf2e it is an always-active effect of being able to perceive invisible things. The Pathfinder version is narrower in implementation but doesn't have to worry about limited use, while D&D is more broadly encompassing but as a limited resource. The Telepathy feat is not level-gated, and in 5e lets the demon mentally communicate with nearby creatures along with a long rest-refresh use of Detect Thoughts. But in Pathfinder, the telepathy is touch-range and requires both parties to speak the same language to understand each other, which feels a lot less useful and a lot more situational.
The Pathfinder-exclusive feats include Demonic Tail (5th level, get a prehensile tail), Purge Corruption (9th level, no longer have weakness to evil and good damage), Collapse Into Sludge (13th level, omox only, gain greater resistance to acid damage as well as resistance to precision damage and critical hits for 1 minute), Liquid Leap (17th level, omox-only, can teleport between liquid surfaces up to 120 feet away), and Wrath of the Abyss (17th level, AoE explosion that deals acid damage and bonus evil damage to celestials along with the sickened condition). Looks like the Omox got shafted a bit in the transition to 5th Edition!
You might have counted 5 feats up above. Well, it turns out 5th Edition has an exclusive demon feat of its own: Amphibious Toad! It can (theoretically) be taken at 1st level by a hezrou, granting swim speed and amphibiousness.
There's a 16th/17th level feat representing a limited-duration "ultimate form" that a demon can take. It's basically a buff that increases the demon to large size, temporary hit points, and a variety of other goodies. I noticed a bit of an oopsie in the Pathfinder version which grants darkvision in this form, even though the base demon ancestry already has it.
Thoughts: The higher-level feats start to be more broadly useful and worth taking, particularly Unseen Sight. Dimension Door is a pretty useful thing to have for a character to get out of sticky situations, but may be less useful for PCs like warrior types who want to be in the thick of things. I do feel bad for the Omox losing out on some good high-level abilities. Add to the fact that only a few kinds of gamers would be eager to play a toxic sludge monster, things aren't looking too good for the poor demon!
Our section on demons ends with the
Demonic Marauder, representing renegade demons who practice a style of martial arts making use of their particular biology. In both systems it has a base feat requiring demonic ancestry (is an Archetype Dedication in Pf2e), with further feats gated behind this and other feats as prerequisites. The base feat grants them either the Demonic Strike feat (and allowing for retraining if already possessed) or the Maraud ability, which lets them deal bonus damage with an unarmed natural weapon of their demonic ancestry when moving up to their speed. Every demonic subspecies has a feat that bestows a fighting style in accordance with their nature: for example, a Dretch can Deny Sloth and rolls a d4 whose result might either supernaturally slow or hasten them, while a Marilith gains Focused Assault where their two-weapon fighting takes greater ferocity and can still deal damage even if they miss both times.
The species-neutral feats are all geared towards a bulky and/or mobile melee warrior type, such as Hulking Marauder that increases their size to Large if not already and grants a reach of 10 feet, or Grievous Wound at 12th (pf2e) or 16th level (5e) which applies the persistent damage of the Vicious Criticals feat to regular hits rather than just critical hits (5e), or deals more dice worth of persistent damage based on level (pf2e). We even have one utility feat that can work for noncombat stuff! It's the Succubus' Profane Gift, where they can buff an ally for an hour that allows for telepathic communication between and gives the ally a +1 bonus to attacks, saves, and skill checks.
Thoughts: Demonic Marauder feat tree doesn't grant ability score increases in 5th Edition, which hurts it a bit, but there are some feats worth looking into for builds. Gaining reach is very good for melee characters in general, albeit the large size may not be to the liking of nimbler Dexterity-based types. The Succubus' Profane Gift is really good in 5e due to Bounded Accuracy, so I can see it being a popular choice, and it can still be good in Pathfinder. The Dretch's Deny Sloth is on the less appealing side on account that it can either be a buff or debuff, where the other subspecies' feats are overall good.
Thoughts So Far: Battlezoo Ancestries is off to a strong start, giving us a generous helping of game mechanics and roleplay/worldbuilding-focused details on playable demons. I like how the combination of subspecies and feats makes for a very versatile monstrous ancestry, and there's a few golden gems here for a variety of builds. My biggest criticism is that the designer's differing level of system experience is evident in the Pathfinder options being overall more balanced for that game, while the D&D options struggle against the feat system and thus make many of them overall less attractive than ASI or core options.
Join us next time as we take a look at Doppelgangers, everyone's favorite shapechangers!